Answer to SoS for Defence...
Without in any way detracting from the various comments above, as someone has hinted this might be some calculated positioning. SoS has said several times that with difficult decisions now taken "we can now start to invest", and even the Chancellor has said any more savings in Defence should be in the nature of efficiencies rather than (further) capability reductions.
Bearing in mind that Defence isn't in the charmed circle of ring-fenced budgets then this might be one of the least worst options for MoD to be seen to be doing its bit, savings-wise, presentationally. Apologies for the cynicism deficit here, I recognise that some is justified and I probably need to re-start my medication.
Bearing in mind that Defence isn't in the charmed circle of ring-fenced budgets then this might be one of the least worst options for MoD to be seen to be doing its bit, savings-wise, presentationally. Apologies for the cynicism deficit here, I recognise that some is justified and I probably need to re-start my medication.
Calculated positioning - that does assume of course that Mr Fallon is still in post on 8 May, which by all accounts is not a certainty.
So with that in mind, just who does have the better record on Defence? It's a tricky one as they both seem as bad as each other, with neither of them truly believing in Defence - you can always tell when politicians are lying about defence, just look for their lips moving.
And good luck if you want to make a side by side comparison of their respective Defence policies; can't find them anywhere in any meaningful form. So just where do we go to make an accurate, objective and informed decision on which party has form and which party is likely to screw us over the most later this year?
So with that in mind, just who does have the better record on Defence? It's a tricky one as they both seem as bad as each other, with neither of them truly believing in Defence - you can always tell when politicians are lying about defence, just look for their lips moving.
And good luck if you want to make a side by side comparison of their respective Defence policies; can't find them anywhere in any meaningful form. So just where do we go to make an accurate, objective and informed decision on which party has form and which party is likely to screw us over the most later this year?
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The last Labour Government had a better record.
I would have thought.....this lot have been awful, and they're conservative=always supposed to have been the party of the military.
With distance now of time, why did the military seem to hate Labour so much? Comparatively, they seemed good.
Labour ministers gave them plenty of combat, plenty of opportunity for war-fighting. A reason to exist.
Weren't that bad on procurement either when they got going (c word again). Most of the barracks, bases accommodation I stayed in were transformed for the better after they got in.
New carriers, Type 45, Bay Class RFA, A class subs....looked good compared to the Cons.
With distance now of time, why did the military seem to hate Labour so much? Comparatively, they seemed good.
Labour ministers gave them plenty of combat, plenty of opportunity for war-fighting. A reason to exist.
Weren't that bad on procurement either when they got going (c word again). Most of the barracks, bases accommodation I stayed in were transformed for the better after they got in.
New carriers, Type 45, Bay Class RFA, A class subs....looked good compared to the Cons.
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Hangarshuffle - Lefty nonsense I'm afraid!
ShotOne - Debateable points; but Fallon is still a most worrying part of the problem, past and present, whichever regime you quote. All of them are culpable in rendering our Armed Forces toothless in any potential conflict beyond that of the Islamic issue. And you didn't mention Harrier, in particular.
Out Of Trim - All valid comments. All open to debate of course. But all contributing to our decline, nevertheless.
ShotOne - Debateable points; but Fallon is still a most worrying part of the problem, past and present, whichever regime you quote. All of them are culpable in rendering our Armed Forces toothless in any potential conflict beyond that of the Islamic issue. And you didn't mention Harrier, in particular.
Out Of Trim - All valid comments. All open to debate of course. But all contributing to our decline, nevertheless.
jindabyne,
I'm certainly no lefty, far from it, but to paraphrase that brilliant film Life of Brian, just what have the Tories ever done for us?
Five years down the line, they really can't keep blaming the last lot no matter how bad one might think they were.
I'm certainly no lefty, far from it, but to paraphrase that brilliant film Life of Brian, just what have the Tories ever done for us?
Five years down the line, they really can't keep blaming the last lot no matter how bad one might think they were.
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"Gave them plenty of combat..opportunity for war-fighting, a reason to exist.." You could also say that of Adolf Hitler, HS. And yes they bought some fabulous expensive kit. The trouble is they didn't budget any money to pay for it.
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1980s was the last post war period of increased Defence spend. It was a combination of maggie and the prospect of the Third shock Army moving West that caused that. Tory cuts in the 90s more than made up for the temporary up arrow in Defence.
Defence issues don't even register on current opinion polls. Whoever wins it will hurt, just in slightly different areas I suspect....
Defence issues don't even register on current opinion polls. Whoever wins it will hurt, just in slightly different areas I suspect....
Last edited by Selatar; 2nd Feb 2015 at 21:18.
Selatar,
How easily one forgets...
Thatchers Government made it's first defence cuts in 1980, then again in 1981, then again in 1982: do you remember the Falklands?
Third Lightning squadron scrapped, order for extra Hawks cancelled, order for extra Sea Harriers cancelled, Sea Dart mk3 scrapped, developed Skyflash scrapped, HMS Bulwark scrapped, order for comms Jetstreams cancelled....
Then there were the cuts that arguably helped make up the Argentinians mind on invading the Falklands: HMS Hermes, Fearless, Intrepid, Endurance and Blake, scrapped, one third of all Frigates and Destroyers scrapped, Royal Marines amphibious lift and airlift scrapped, HMS Invincible sold, so it goes on. A lot of the RN cuts were of course hastily reversed when the Falklands fiasco erupted, but they were Tory defence cuts.
How easily one forgets...
Thatchers Government made it's first defence cuts in 1980, then again in 1981, then again in 1982: do you remember the Falklands?
Third Lightning squadron scrapped, order for extra Hawks cancelled, order for extra Sea Harriers cancelled, Sea Dart mk3 scrapped, developed Skyflash scrapped, HMS Bulwark scrapped, order for comms Jetstreams cancelled....
Then there were the cuts that arguably helped make up the Argentinians mind on invading the Falklands: HMS Hermes, Fearless, Intrepid, Endurance and Blake, scrapped, one third of all Frigates and Destroyers scrapped, Royal Marines amphibious lift and airlift scrapped, HMS Invincible sold, so it goes on. A lot of the RN cuts were of course hastily reversed when the Falklands fiasco erupted, but they were Tory defence cuts.
A questionnaire I have recently received from David Cameron lists 17 issues from which I am asked to select 3 which I consider to be most important to me and my family and the country as a whole.
Defence is not included in either list.
Defence is not included in either list.
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Perception
Pr00ne,
You are correct and the Falklands did change spending policy with the largely Navy bashing Nott Review put on ice. However, the decade did see GDP spend increases and real term increases in defence spend. GDP spend peaked at over 5% (the highest since the 1960s) and real term percentage growth started in 1980 before the Falklands. The light blue also finished the decade with more people than it started it with- a unique stat.
I wasn't there but I always thought the Tory cuts really started in 1990 and the 80s wasn't that bad, notably for the RAF. Also, if cuts were harsh then what were we spending our money on? I defer to those that worked through it.
You are correct and the Falklands did change spending policy with the largely Navy bashing Nott Review put on ice. However, the decade did see GDP spend increases and real term increases in defence spend. GDP spend peaked at over 5% (the highest since the 1960s) and real term percentage growth started in 1980 before the Falklands. The light blue also finished the decade with more people than it started it with- a unique stat.
I wasn't there but I always thought the Tory cuts really started in 1990 and the 80s wasn't that bad, notably for the RAF. Also, if cuts were harsh then what were we spending our money on? I defer to those that worked through it.
However, the decade did see GDP spend increases and real term increases in defence spend
During the seven years prior to the end of the Cold War, under Mrs Thatcher’s premiership, defence spending fell by 7 per cent in real terms.
... in the entire period since the death of Stalin in 1953, the only sustained period in which the defence budget has
grown at a rate comparable with that of total government spending has been in the six years after 1978/79, a consequence of the UK’s commitment (under Prime Ministers Callaghan and Thatcher) to the NATO 3 per cent target for annual real spending increases
grown at a rate comparable with that of total government spending has been in the six years after 1978/79, a consequence of the UK’s commitment (under Prime Ministers Callaghan and Thatcher) to the NATO 3 per cent target for annual real spending increases
had it grown at the same rate as the rest of public spending ..... defence spending in 2008/09 would have reached £61 billion, a full £25 billion higher than its actual level.
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pulse1
I had a similar questionnaire from my local MP. I replied by putting Defence as one of my three, and asked why it had not been included in the list. No response.
I had a similar questionnaire from my local MP. I replied by putting Defence as one of my three, and asked why it had not been included in the list. No response.
