First woman to command an RAF FJ sqn
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Having just missed out on a Coronation medal my only RAF-time gong was the Suez Canal Zone Medal. Apart from a 'Meritorious Service' one from H.M. the Queen in 1992 the only other was the Gulf War Medal awarded for activities carried out in a Middle Eastern country. A long time between first and last.
Thread Starter
For the Mods
I started this thread because I thought people should know that more than 20 years after women were allowed to fly in the RAF, this is the first time that one has made it as far as command of a fast-jet squadron. Full marks to the lady concerned, who has had to climb a bigger hill than most.
Predictably it took only a few posts before the 'why are we making a fuss?' comments surfaced, followed shortly after by photographs of a second individual, followed by the inevitable slew of personal remarks and thread drift into a wholly unconnected debate on medals.
Mods: time to lock this thread please, the initial point has been made and there seems little reason to continue a debate that has strayed so far from its purpose.
ff
Predictably it took only a few posts before the 'why are we making a fuss?' comments surfaced, followed shortly after by photographs of a second individual, followed by the inevitable slew of personal remarks and thread drift into a wholly unconnected debate on medals.
Mods: time to lock this thread please, the initial point has been made and there seems little reason to continue a debate that has strayed so far from its purpose.
ff
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But newt - I haven't told you about mine yet. Should I PM you? 
And staying on topic. Don't know what the fuss is about. I can well recall a boss of one of my squadrons being an old woman.
And staying on topic. Don't know what the fuss is about. I can well recall a boss of one of my squadrons being an old woman.
Full marks to the lady concerned, who has had to climb a bigger hill than most.
Mods: time to lock this thread please, the initial point has been made and there seems little reason to continue a debate that has strayed so far from its purpose.
Gentleman Aviator
No - please don't lock it O Mods! 
Of course it has "thread-drifted" as many threads do; just like conversations do in the crewroom chat ofd which this virtual crewroom/virtual bar provides an example.
I can just see the "real conversation".
"Did you see that the new OC X Sqn is a girlie*?"
"Good on her - at least she's got some campaign medals - unlike OC Y Sqn"
"Yes, but you can be a "war fighter" without being in theatre."
"Speaking of medals ......."
"Sorry, I can't let you talk about medals when we're talking about a girlie* Sqn Cdr!!"
I somehow don't think so!!! Not unless the last speaker wanted to wear his pint/and or exit bar via window rather than door.
*no offence/patronising intended, just replicating the way it WOULD be spoken about in a crewroom or bar.
Of course it has "thread-drifted" as many threads do; just like conversations do in the crewroom chat ofd which this virtual crewroom/virtual bar provides an example.
I can just see the "real conversation".
"Did you see that the new OC X Sqn is a girlie*?"
"Good on her - at least she's got some campaign medals - unlike OC Y Sqn"
"Yes, but you can be a "war fighter" without being in theatre."
"Speaking of medals ......."
"Sorry, I can't let you talk about medals when we're talking about a girlie* Sqn Cdr!!"
I somehow don't think so!!! Not unless the last speaker wanted to wear his pint/and or exit bar via window rather than door.
*no offence/patronising intended, just replicating the way it WOULD be spoken about in a crewroom or bar.
I wonder if anyone actually gets together in a "crewroom" these days? Was a disappearing tradition a few years back. Suspect there is a 'virtual crewroom' equivalent on Dii by now? 
Hoping the bar/occasional beer-call still provides a chance for real interaction. Anyhoo....back to the soon to be closed thread 
Hoping the bar/occasional beer-call still provides a chance for real interaction. Anyhoo....back to the soon to be closed thread
Thread Starter
OK Training Risky, I will bite...
Firstly, your conclusion that 'only comments that agree with the OP and his perceived wisdom are allowed' has either been drawn out of thin air (trolling, as it's better known) or you have simply misunderstood what I wrote. My point was that the thread had degenerated into personal criticism of individuals who can't easily answer back and then turned into a discussion about campaign medals - and that last dimension really is irrelevant. And anyone who posts on here will know well that you can hardly expect everyone to agree with you; I am sure we can agree on that.
As for your assertion that the good Wg Cdr has had the same hill to climb as every other sqn cdr, I am afraid you are well wide of the mark. For example, ten years ago I had working for me a very competent junior officer who had been a CR nav on an FJ sqn and who had decided she would no longer deal with the casual and often deliberate misogyny she faced on a daily basis both from her sqn 'mates' and the execs. She left the RAF quietly. I could never understand why she chose not to persist with a complaint as she had a cast-iron case for an industrial tribunal - she just said it was not worth the aggro, she did not want to bring disrepute on the Service or put other women off joining, but hoped that things might be a little bit better for those who came next.
I could also point you towards another very capable female officer (aircrew...) working in the Joint environment who, despite being the most experienced and competent in post and role, was consistently ignored in favour of any other male officer of the same rank when it came to deputising for their boss. But that was as recent as 2014 so probably doesn't count. And it is perhaps best not get into the question of dual standards and parity of treatment when it comes to social faux pas over the years. The hill is only the same if you ignore the environment, which means ignoring the gender issue - not something the attitude surveys indicate is warranted at the moment.
Bringing gender into the debate does not mean I think women should be treated as special. Au contraire, Blackadder, I think they should be treated as equals. So do they - try talking to some of them. And until they are treated as equals you should not be surprised if there is media interest when one of them pierces a glass ceiling of any description. There won't be such a fuss when the next woman is selected for RAFAT, because it's already been done. Nor will there be national media interest in the second woman selected to command an FJ squadron. And for those young women thinking of joining the Service, they now know they can aspire to sqn command if they are good enough, and that having balls and campaign medals is no longer a pre-requisite.
And now, back off-piste - we haven't discussed the aircraft paint schemes yet.
ff
Firstly, your conclusion that 'only comments that agree with the OP and his perceived wisdom are allowed' has either been drawn out of thin air (trolling, as it's better known) or you have simply misunderstood what I wrote. My point was that the thread had degenerated into personal criticism of individuals who can't easily answer back and then turned into a discussion about campaign medals - and that last dimension really is irrelevant. And anyone who posts on here will know well that you can hardly expect everyone to agree with you; I am sure we can agree on that.
As for your assertion that the good Wg Cdr has had the same hill to climb as every other sqn cdr, I am afraid you are well wide of the mark. For example, ten years ago I had working for me a very competent junior officer who had been a CR nav on an FJ sqn and who had decided she would no longer deal with the casual and often deliberate misogyny she faced on a daily basis both from her sqn 'mates' and the execs. She left the RAF quietly. I could never understand why she chose not to persist with a complaint as she had a cast-iron case for an industrial tribunal - she just said it was not worth the aggro, she did not want to bring disrepute on the Service or put other women off joining, but hoped that things might be a little bit better for those who came next.
I could also point you towards another very capable female officer (aircrew...) working in the Joint environment who, despite being the most experienced and competent in post and role, was consistently ignored in favour of any other male officer of the same rank when it came to deputising for their boss. But that was as recent as 2014 so probably doesn't count. And it is perhaps best not get into the question of dual standards and parity of treatment when it comes to social faux pas over the years. The hill is only the same if you ignore the environment, which means ignoring the gender issue - not something the attitude surveys indicate is warranted at the moment.
Bringing gender into the debate does not mean I think women should be treated as special. Au contraire, Blackadder, I think they should be treated as equals. So do they - try talking to some of them. And until they are treated as equals you should not be surprised if there is media interest when one of them pierces a glass ceiling of any description. There won't be such a fuss when the next woman is selected for RAFAT, because it's already been done. Nor will there be national media interest in the second woman selected to command an FJ squadron. And for those young women thinking of joining the Service, they now know they can aspire to sqn command if they are good enough, and that having balls and campaign medals is no longer a pre-requisite.
And now, back off-piste - we haven't discussed the aircraft paint schemes yet.
ff
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Oops, I apologise if I started a thread drift about medals - that was not my intent! It was just a passing comment that others seemed to latch on to!
Well done to them both but, as an ex-mud man and a nav/QWI (on 2 types) etc etc, well done Wg Cdr Nikki!
Bloggs
Well done to them both but, as an ex-mud man and a nav/QWI (on 2 types) etc etc, well done Wg Cdr Nikki!
Bloggs
ff,
I won't prolong this argument for any longer than is necessary, if only to acknowledge your anecdotal evidence about poor bullied females and your apparent keenness that your version of 'equality' must be heard and loved by the uneducated masses, until we parrot the party line.
I won't prolong this argument for any longer than is necessary, if only to acknowledge your anecdotal evidence about poor bullied females and your apparent keenness that your version of 'equality' must be heard and loved by the uneducated masses, until we parrot the party line.
Oops, I apologise if I started a thread drift about medals - that was not my intent! It was just a passing comment that others seemed to latch on to!
), so it's a win - win situation as far as I'm concerned
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I've resisted so far, but WTF ...
OK, she's the first FJ Sqn Cdr, but I really thought we had eventually got over this 'lumpy jumper' mindset.
I joined in 65, and worked with female ATCOs [and other female professionals] from Day One. Some were good, some were bad, some married Navigators But, they were just 'blokes' doing a job, the same as my OH ... who in 95 attended a Conference for all the female wg cdrs in the RAF, all 42 of them.
Auntie Joan was mentioned earlier. Not mentioned often was the fact that she turned down DWRAF: "I refuse to be a token woman, thank you."
I worked with female officers for my 30 years [including highly professional lesbians]. I didn't give a sh*t about gender or orientation ... the good ones were good, the bad ones were bad, exactly as the males were.
Perhaps one day we will stop fluffing about the subject? Nah ... too optimistic on my part. Sorry.
OK, she's the first FJ Sqn Cdr, but I really thought we had eventually got over this 'lumpy jumper' mindset.
I joined in 65, and worked with female ATCOs [and other female professionals] from Day One. Some were good, some were bad, some married Navigators
But, they were just 'blokes' doing a job, the same as my OH ... who in 95 attended a Conference for all the female wg cdrs in the RAF, all 42 of them.Auntie Joan was mentioned earlier. Not mentioned often was the fact that she turned down DWRAF: "I refuse to be a token woman, thank you."
I worked with female officers for my 30 years [including highly professional lesbians]. I didn't give a sh*t about gender or orientation ... the good ones were good, the bad ones were bad, exactly as the males were.
Perhaps one day we will stop fluffing about the subject? Nah ... too optimistic on my part. Sorry.
MPN11, you have reminded me of the alleged meeting at Cranwell to discuss having WRAF, as they were then, working in the tower. The proposal was about to fall due to the lack of female toilets. SATCO, again allegedly, suggested a tent out the back. The Command WRAF officer retorted, again allegedly, "But squadron leader, my girls prefer permanent erections!"
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Originally Posted by Wander00
IMHO, Aunty Joan was not a token anything
Fg Off MPN11 rang Bukit Gombak to protest ... Sqn Ldr Auntie Joan heard my protest, and her response ended with something like "If you don't like it you can fork orf". Perhaps I should have phrased my objections more subtly?
Bless her ... a legend in her own lifetime, and a seriously Proper Officer.
As are, of course, many other senior female officers. And male senior officers.
As are many wastes of space in the officer ranks, of any Branch or gender
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MPN11,
I'll second your #94 ! (said much the same in my #45 on this Thread). Will copy my off-thread comments (about the COIN operation) to my favourite Thread, which (happily) allows old-timers infinite scope !
D
I'll second your #94 ! (said much the same in my #45 on this Thread). Will copy my off-thread comments (about the COIN operation) to my favourite Thread, which (happily) allows old-timers infinite scope !
D
Last edited by Danny42C; 15th Jan 2015 at 19:33. Reason: Make more sense.
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Forget what gender the boss is, or how many medals they have.
If you look at the full set of photos of the II(AC) / 12 Sqn Standard Party's; both Standard WOs have brown gloves on. On the set on Tumbir, the 12 Sqn WO is shown touching the Standard with brown gloves The 2 SWOs should be marching themselves down to the Gaurdroom!
If you look at the full set of photos of the II(AC) / 12 Sqn Standard Party's; both Standard WOs have brown gloves on. On the set on Tumbir, the 12 Sqn WO is shown touching the Standard with brown gloves
The 2 SWOs should be marching themselves down to the Gaurdroom!
Gaurdroom
Edit to add:
According to AP1358
White nylon or cotton gloves with one button or press-stud are to be worn by:
a. RAF and PMRAFNS officers with No 1A and 6A SD, whether or not a sword is being worn, and with No 1 and 6 SD when a sword is worn.
b. WOs with No 1 and 6 SD when a sword is worn.
a. RAF and PMRAFNS officers with No 1A and 6A SD, whether or not a sword is being worn, and with No 1 and 6 SD when a sword is worn.
b. WOs with No 1 and 6 SD when a sword is worn.
Last edited by Wrathmonk; 16th Jan 2015 at 08:30.