Luftwaffe F104 NCO PIlots
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There were a few reasons for NCOs not being allowed to pilot jet airplanes, one of them being the salary issue. I seem to remember that the "Starfighter crisis" of the mid-sixties had revealed NCOs, with their less refined education, to be deemed unfit to operate the increasingly complex weapons systems.
We have still recruited NCO helicopter pilots for some time, though. Indeed, there is something called "Fachdienstoffizier" in the German military, roughly translated "specialist officer", who are in effect NCOs with some extra training and who are still being recruited as pilots for helicopters and transport aircraft. The highest rank they can obtain is captain.
We have still recruited NCO helicopter pilots for some time, though. Indeed, there is something called "Fachdienstoffizier" in the German military, roughly translated "specialist officer", who are in effect NCOs with some extra training and who are still being recruited as pilots for helicopters and transport aircraft. The highest rank they can obtain is captain.
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I seem to remember that the "Starfighter crisis" of the mid-sixties had revealed NCOs, with their less refined education,
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As this thread has drifted (a little) into Non Commissioned RAF pilots, ISTR there was at least one Master Pilot on 1574 Flt. in 1966 at Changi, Gerry S, a true gent. I also recall a Master Pilot as test pilot at St Athan in the late 60's.
So when did the last Non Commissioned pilot cease flying in the RAF?
PM
So when did the last Non Commissioned pilot cease flying in the RAF?
PM
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I believe casting my remaining memory cells back that it was a Wessex instructor back in 1984. Can't remember his name now but he had a bit of a rep for being a no nonsense type of guy.... Master Pilots were still around after that date obviously but not flying. There was one in the sim at Binbrook when I was there mid 80's.
. Master Pilots were still around after that date obviously but not flying. There was one in the sim at Binbrook when I was there mid 80's.
exhorder
There were a few reasons for NCOs not being allowed to pilot jet airplanes, one of them being the salary issue. I seem to remember that the "Starfighter crisis" of the mid-sixties had revealed NCOs, with their less refined their education, to be deemed unfit to operate the increasingly complex weapons systems.
There were a few reasons for NCOs not being allowed to pilot jet airplanes, one of them being the salary issue. I seem to remember that the "Starfighter crisis" of the mid-sixties had revealed NCOs, with their less refined their education, to be deemed unfit to operate the increasingly complex weapons systems.
Thread Starter
[quote=RetiredF4
807484]
I had a read through the Roll of Honour in the book tonight and counted 14 NCO pilots killed flying the F104 out of 116 fatalities listed, so I guess that blows that theory! Not that rank held lessens the individual tragedy behind each story.
807484]
exhorder
Oh boy, you got that one really stuffed up. I've learned nothing useful for flying on officers school or on the staff officers course. The problems with the F 104 had not much to do with the guy in the pointy end.
Oh boy, you got that one really stuffed up. I've learned nothing useful for flying on officers school or on the staff officers course. The problems with the F 104 had not much to do with the guy in the pointy end.
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When you look at the percentage loss rate it compared favourably with other contemporary aircraft; the Lightning I believe had a larger percentage loss than the 104G. Best (or worst)attrition rate I've ever seen is the Harrier, something like 50% throughout all marks.
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Widow maker ?
I think this was because despite the higher airframe loss rate than the Lightning the Early F104 had a much higher fatality rate due to a poor crew escape system.
I am told things improved with the fitting of the Martin Baker seat.
I am told things improved with the fitting of the Martin Baker seat.
Originally Posted by A and C
Widow maker ?
I think this was because despite the higher airframe loss rate than the Lightning the Early F104 had a much higher fatality rate due to a poor crew escape system.
I am told things improved with the fitting of the Martin Baker seat.
I think this was because despite the higher airframe loss rate than the Lightning the Early F104 had a much higher fatality rate due to a poor crew escape system.
I am told things improved with the fitting of the Martin Baker seat.
Germany didn't have the worst loss record of the 104 operators by any means, as a percentage, Canada had a much worse 104 loss rate IIRC, around 45% compared to 30-31% for the Germans and Dutch, and about 37% loss rate for the Belgians and Italians.
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Thing-those figures are an illustration of how our acceptance of attrition of men and machines have altered aren't they?
Today whole fleets/types would be grounded,reasessed and/or cancelled on those grounds.
Exigencies of the times?
And they called it the 'Meatbox' for several good reasons!!
Today whole fleets/types would be grounded,reasessed and/or cancelled on those grounds.
Exigencies of the times?
And they called it the 'Meatbox' for several good reasons!!
Last edited by phil9560; 4th Jan 2015 at 00:50. Reason: educated myself further on the meteor
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Quite correct Phil. It was just after the war and I guess it was accepted that men and machines would be lost because they always had been. Culture of the times really. I'm sure that given the same aircraft and todays thinking and training that only a handful of pilots would have died.
Your whole fleet being grounded made me chuckle, I doubt whether the whole of NATO has 890 fighters these days!
Your whole fleet being grounded made me chuckle, I doubt whether the whole of NATO has 890 fighters these days!
Not sure it was training.It was the aircraft.Early days etc.Going backwards to go forwards is the callous way to put it.But so many crew bought the farm bless em.
Although,as we agree, it wouldn't happen today.
Although,as we agree, it wouldn't happen today.
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@RetiredF4: This is most certainly not my personal belief. However, the issue is mentioned in quite a few good books dealing with the Luftwaffe's early years. I wasn't even born back then, making these my only source for this discussion.
Re early Mach 2 fighter attrition rates: France, Australia and Belgium had similar figures for their respective Mirage III/V fleets.
Re early Mach 2 fighter attrition rates: France, Australia and Belgium had similar figures for their respective Mirage III/V fleets.
Further to GeeRam's figures on loss rates, "Bugs" Bendell in his book Never in Anger gives a slightly different slant with his comment about fatalities:
"In fact the F-104’s loss rate was comparable to many other single-engined fast jet aircraft; the difference was, a far greater proportion of F-104 accidents were fatal. Not so with the Canadians who took the realistic view that, if the engine quits at low level you pull up, converting speed to altitude, and you eject."
"In fact the F-104’s loss rate was comparable to many other single-engined fast jet aircraft; the difference was, a far greater proportion of F-104 accidents were fatal. Not so with the Canadians who took the realistic view that, if the engine quits at low level you pull up, converting speed to altitude, and you eject."
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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I remember my Chipmunk instructor in the Army was an ex RAF Meteor pilot and he said many, (if not most), of the fatalities occurred during practice asymmetric training, at low level, on finals? Must be some ex Meteor pilots still around?