F-4 Question
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F-4 Question
Can anyone tell me if the MDD F-4 Phantom had a command ejection system?
i.e- Pilot pulls - Both go, Nav pulls- depends on tap settings.
i.e- Pilot pulls - Both go, Nav pulls- depends on tap settings.
We didn't have command eject in our F4s. That was one of the criteria to consider in order avoid simultaneous or near-simultaneous ejections endangering the nav.
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Thanks Courtney.
I was not aware that your Phantoms did not have “command eject” capability from the rear cockpit. What was the reason for that? Also, was that the case with both the F-4K Phantom FG.1 and the F-4M Phantom FGR.2?
Also, the RAF operated what was pretty much a “straight” F-4J which I believe would have had command eject capability from the rear cockpit. I know it had the J79-GE-10B engines.
Bob
I was not aware that your Phantoms did not have “command eject” capability from the rear cockpit. What was the reason for that? Also, was that the case with both the F-4K Phantom FG.1 and the F-4M Phantom FGR.2?
Also, the RAF operated what was pretty much a “straight” F-4J which I believe would have had command eject capability from the rear cockpit. I know it had the J79-GE-10B engines.
Bob
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Good story - a Vixen was on the Cat and given the go flag. The Observer noticed the wing fold dolls eyes showed fold. He ejected.
The pilot got airborne with wings ok but no Observer and it was a bit drafty
All ended ok - they picked up the Observer and the pilot landed back on.
The pilot got airborne with wings ok but no Observer and it was a bit drafty
All ended ok - they picked up the Observer and the pilot landed back on.
Indeed, neither K nor M had it, but can't speak for the J, which was unadulterated. We did have an EJECT light though. Not sure what my reaction would have been if it ever came on.
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"Good story - a Vixen was on the Cat and given the go flag. The Observer noticed the wing fold dolls eyes showed fold. He ejected.
The pilot got airborne with wings ok but no Observer and it was a bit drafty
All ended ok - they picked up the Observer and the pilot landed back on."
Do you have a reference for that - it sounds like the Obs ejected when airborne as I believe the Sea Vixen seat needed 90 knots+ to successfully operate. Sounds like an interesting story to read.
The pilot got airborne with wings ok but no Observer and it was a bit drafty
All ended ok - they picked up the Observer and the pilot landed back on."
Do you have a reference for that - it sounds like the Obs ejected when airborne as I believe the Sea Vixen seat needed 90 knots+ to successfully operate. Sounds like an interesting story to read.
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I recall in the early 80s at a desert base in California there was great upset over Command Eject. There were two F4 Wings on the base, one Operational and one Training. In 1984 the Operational Wing detached to the FRG to reinforce the Central Region. After a 12 hour transit the formation leader (1*) decided to do a 6 ship formation IMC penetration for a flypast. The base at the time was Yellow. While in IMC two of the ac had a mid-air collision. The F4G was fitted with Command Eject and both WSOs ejected themselves and their pilots from their ac.
Afterwards, during the initial enquiry, one of the ejected pilots stated that he thought that he could control his ac and was surprised when he was ejected.
Back in California the stories drifted back as to what had happened. In time honoured USAF fashion the Training Wing had a Safety Day. During a meeting of all the Wing IPs and IWSOs (about 100 people) the Wing Commander stood up and stated that 2 ac from the other wing had been lost because of the WSOs actions. There was no mention of the saving of 4 lives. He then stated that Command Eject was to be permanently selected to Rear. There was a hushed muttering in the room.
Then a very senior Captain stood up and stated that he would not continue to fly if the edict was bought in. His statement was met with a burst of applause. Everyone had thought the same but no one else dared to stand up to the Wing Commander.
The Colonel quickly realised that he had made a grave misjudgement and quickly backed down.
Afterwards, during the initial enquiry, one of the ejected pilots stated that he thought that he could control his ac and was surprised when he was ejected.
Back in California the stories drifted back as to what had happened. In time honoured USAF fashion the Training Wing had a Safety Day. During a meeting of all the Wing IPs and IWSOs (about 100 people) the Wing Commander stood up and stated that 2 ac from the other wing had been lost because of the WSOs actions. There was no mention of the saving of 4 lives. He then stated that Command Eject was to be permanently selected to Rear. There was a hushed muttering in the room.
Then a very senior Captain stood up and stated that he would not continue to fly if the edict was bought in. His statement was met with a burst of applause. Everyone had thought the same but no one else dared to stand up to the Wing Commander.
The Colonel quickly realised that he had made a grave misjudgement and quickly backed down.
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OK,
I totally agree with your description and your stance on where the decision should rest as to where the valve should be set. Most experienced front seaters that I knew briefed to select Rear unless they knew that the pilot was incapacitated and then select Both.
The Colonel in question had just come from the F111 and clearly had not thought about the options in the F4.
I totally agree with your description and your stance on where the decision should rest as to where the valve should be set. Most experienced front seaters that I knew briefed to select Rear unless they knew that the pilot was incapacitated and then select Both.
The Colonel in question had just come from the F111 and clearly had not thought about the options in the F4.
Command selector valve -open (horizontal)
That was the position as I briefed it except for passenger rides.
Pilots coming from single seaters had a different point of view, but that was true not only concerning the position of this valve.
The F4 was the first and only combat jet I flew, and I was trained in a two man concept from the beginning. I had to trust this guy in the back to navigate with the radar during night IMC in 1000' low level, in evasive maneuvering during close in fights when he was my eyes in my six, and navigating out of a map flying low level in Labrador with up to 540 Knots and down to 100 feet. If that guy was trying to kill me, he didn't need to wait until a possible ejection situation was likely. From the time our name tags showed up on the flight rooster I formed a team and maintained it until coffee after debrief was finished.
At the moment the sh*t hits the fan the guy in the back has to make a decision, to go or to stay. If the command selector valve was closed, he has to make an aditional decision, to turn the valve against the briefing and go with the guy in front or leave him to make his own guess. Precious time may be lost for both. It was not my way to do it. We stepped on that aircraft as crew, and we would leave it as crew.
I would be interested how the navy guys did it operating from the carrier. My guess would be open/ horizontal.
That was the position as I briefed it except for passenger rides.
Pilots coming from single seaters had a different point of view, but that was true not only concerning the position of this valve.
The F4 was the first and only combat jet I flew, and I was trained in a two man concept from the beginning. I had to trust this guy in the back to navigate with the radar during night IMC in 1000' low level, in evasive maneuvering during close in fights when he was my eyes in my six, and navigating out of a map flying low level in Labrador with up to 540 Knots and down to 100 feet. If that guy was trying to kill me, he didn't need to wait until a possible ejection situation was likely. From the time our name tags showed up on the flight rooster I formed a team and maintained it until coffee after debrief was finished.
At the moment the sh*t hits the fan the guy in the back has to make a decision, to go or to stay. If the command selector valve was closed, he has to make an aditional decision, to turn the valve against the briefing and go with the guy in front or leave him to make his own guess. Precious time may be lost for both. It was not my way to do it. We stepped on that aircraft as crew, and we would leave it as crew.
I would be interested how the navy guys did it operating from the carrier. My guess would be open/ horizontal.
OK465
my post should not be misunderstood as a critique on the former single seat guys, most came from the F-104 in my Air force.
I have a different view concerning what a well trained and expierienced WSO could do what I couldn't have done. I think it depended on the role we were flying. In a " one vs many" engagement (yes, we did such crazy things) one pair of eyes had to clear the flightpath and manage the targets in front while the other pair of eyes had to clear the airspace behind the 3-9 line and command the defensive moves. Whoever tried to do it alone was easy meat. Our WSO's in the air to air business were highly respected and trusted. I changed later to recce RF-4's where first it was different. When those recce wings adopted an aditional air to mud roll with tactical formation flying (before it was unarmed, alone and unafraid) and defensive maneuvering, the role of the WSO changed again from just operating the nav and camera systems to a vital part of a successful mission. I have no handle on how it was after my time though, which is 20 years now.
my post should not be misunderstood as a critique on the former single seat guys, most came from the F-104 in my Air force.
I have a different view concerning what a well trained and expierienced WSO could do what I couldn't have done. I think it depended on the role we were flying. In a " one vs many" engagement (yes, we did such crazy things) one pair of eyes had to clear the flightpath and manage the targets in front while the other pair of eyes had to clear the airspace behind the 3-9 line and command the defensive moves. Whoever tried to do it alone was easy meat. Our WSO's in the air to air business were highly respected and trusted. I changed later to recce RF-4's where first it was different. When those recce wings adopted an aditional air to mud roll with tactical formation flying (before it was unarmed, alone and unafraid) and defensive maneuvering, the role of the WSO changed again from just operating the nav and camera systems to a vital part of a successful mission. I have no handle on how it was after my time though, which is 20 years now.
Last edited by RetiredF4; 25th Dec 2014 at 10:00.
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I recall in the early 80s at a desert base in California there was great upset over Command Eject. There were two F4 Wings on the base, one Operational and one Training. In 1984 the Operational Wing detached to the FRG to reinforce the Central Region. After a 12 hour transit the formation leader (1*) decided to do a 6 ship formation IMC penetration for a flypast. The base at the time was Yellow. While in IMC two of the ac had a mid-air collision. The F4G was fitted with Command Eject and both WSOs ejected themselves and their pilots from their ac.
Afterwards, during the initial enquiry, one of the ejected pilots stated that he thought that he could control his ac and was surprised when he was ejected.
Back in California the stories drifted back as to what had happened. In time honoured USAF fashion the Training Wing had a Safety Day. During a meeting of all the Wing IPs and IWSOs (about 100 people) the Wing Commander stood up and stated that 2 ac from the other wing had been lost because of the WSOs actions. There was no mention of the saving of 4 lives. He then stated that Command Eject was to be permanently selected to Rear. There was a hushed muttering in the room.
Then a very senior Captain stood up and stated that he would not continue to fly if the edict was bought in. His statement was met with a burst of applause. Everyone had thought the same but no one else dared to stand up to the Wing Commander.
The Colonel quickly realised that he had made a grave misjudgement and quickly backed down.
Afterwards, during the initial enquiry, one of the ejected pilots stated that he thought that he could control his ac and was surprised when he was ejected.
Back in California the stories drifted back as to what had happened. In time honoured USAF fashion the Training Wing had a Safety Day. During a meeting of all the Wing IPs and IWSOs (about 100 people) the Wing Commander stood up and stated that 2 ac from the other wing had been lost because of the WSOs actions. There was no mention of the saving of 4 lives. He then stated that Command Eject was to be permanently selected to Rear. There was a hushed muttering in the room.
Then a very senior Captain stood up and stated that he would not continue to fly if the edict was bought in. His statement was met with a burst of applause. Everyone had thought the same but no one else dared to stand up to the Wing Commander.
The Colonel quickly realised that he had made a grave misjudgement and quickly backed down.
This was the first anyone in the flight had heard of this deal.
Everything went as planned until the six ship entered clouds. I don't know about the Luftwaffe, but the USAF doesn't have a standard six ship lost wingman maneuver.
In the excitement inside the clouds two F-4s collided and went out of control. Out of control in the clouds both EWOs initiated ejections. I'm not 100% certain, but I seem to recall something about failed hydraulic systems after the impact.
Later in the investigation an engineer, having spent a couple of weeks examining the evidence, testified that the aircraft could have been recovered before ground impact.
According to the initial report of the investigators when these EWOs were confronted with this analysis they each answered 'I'm alive'.
The initial report blamed the whole thing on these two EWOs. The three star Commander of 12th Air Force, in charge of fighter bases in the Western U.S. and my boss at the time, sent a message out to his command that basically said WSO/EWO's cannot be trusted to rotate the handles, quoted their 'I'm alive' answers, and strongly implied that an F-4 was worth more than a WSO/EWO life.
Later two things happened: My boss was forced into early retirement for 'unfortunate' conduct, and HQ USAF retracted the initial report and stated that nobody gets in trouble for ejecting, there would be no second guessing.
Sorry to take up so much space, this was a long time ago but it's something that bothers me to this day.
As an EWO/WSO I left it up to the pilot. I secretly prefered to leave the command selector closed, but I never, ever said that to a pilot.
I once had a pilot brief me to 'rotate it for take off', close it enroute, open it for the low level, close it on the range, open it for the RTB'. I think I just rotated it and forgot about it.
After that if the question came I just told my pilots I would fly with it open or closed, but I didn't like changing it in flight.
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Jim,
30 years is a long time to try and remember the details. I lived next to the Flt Safety Officer on the WW Wing and so heard some "other info" off the rercord. I don't know what happened at 12th AF HQ or on the 37th Wing, just what happened on the 35th. Our Wg Cdr may have been under pressure from Bergstom, however, the message he put over was not well recieved on our Wing.
Suffice to say that common sence prevailed. It was, however, great to see a Capt standup to a Colonel in front of the whole Wing, and survive.
30 years is a long time to try and remember the details. I lived next to the Flt Safety Officer on the WW Wing and so heard some "other info" off the rercord. I don't know what happened at 12th AF HQ or on the 37th Wing, just what happened on the 35th. Our Wg Cdr may have been under pressure from Bergstom, however, the message he put over was not well recieved on our Wing.
Suffice to say that common sence prevailed. It was, however, great to see a Capt standup to a Colonel in front of the whole Wing, and survive.
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P6Driver:
The Observer ejected as they went off the catapult. An easy 90 knots plus.
Another story, I had a serious elevator control problem on a Scimitar. I was about to eject and found I hadnt done up my leg restaint straps. By the time I got them done up I got enough control back to do a divert and land ashore.
The Observer ejected as they went off the catapult. An easy 90 knots plus.
Another story, I had a serious elevator control problem on a Scimitar. I was about to eject and found I hadnt done up my leg restaint straps. By the time I got them done up I got enough control back to do a divert and land ashore.
