Russian provocations; why do we play?
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Russian provocations; why do we play?
There's been what's described as an unprecedented level of Russian military air activity in the Baltic. Without exception these are intercepted resulting in some close calls. Putin orders these flights for internal Russian consumption, to show how tough he is, in standing up to the pernicious West, and distract from his serious economic problems. We oblige him by obediently playing our part. Why do we bother?
they have intensified flights to Kaliningrad and the shortest route has to skim estonian lithuanian and latvian airspace, I can't see why is that a provocation
I don't know why they fly more now, maybe because fuel is quite cheap these days so why not
I don't know why they fly more now, maybe because fuel is quite cheap these days so why not
I must admit that on tumbling out of bed at 3 am on a Dragonfly back in the 70s to go and take a couple of F4s from Leuchars up to intercept a Bear north of The Shetlands I used to feel the same. We knew they were there, they knew we knew they were there, they never violated our airspace, so it all seemed a bit of a waste of time. But our seniors and betters thought that we should be seen to react, so ours wasn't to reason why, ours was to do and fly!
Still, got some nice piccies for the logbook out of it, I suppose!
Still, got some nice piccies for the logbook out of it, I suppose!
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That's an interesting term, mg. But if we simply didn't bother it would be an utter waste of time for them. The flights are launched for a specific political purpose but it's only our response which allows them to achieve it.
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Perhaps, one day the 'specific political purpose' may not be that.
Besides, what would you rather do? Sit in the QRA crewroom watching TV for 24 hours, or go fly. No contest.
Besides, what would you rather do? Sit in the QRA crewroom watching TV for 24 hours, or go fly. No contest.
And imagine the howls from the media (and not just the Daily Mail). Politicians would not gamble such a risky political strategy; they would be insane to not authorise a response.
Imagine the DM headline and photos 'RAF Top Guns play games* while Russian Bears stalk Britain'. '£100M Typhoon [picture of GR4] grounded because Whitehall Says No'.... followed by the readers' comments, mostly along the lines of 'Time we left the EUSSR and dumped the LIBLABCON traitors. Vote UKIP!' or 'DO we still have an Air Force? Time we got rid of it and gave the Navy ships. Vote UKIP!'. ad naseum
* Uckers, of course
Imagine the DM headline and photos 'RAF Top Guns play games* while Russian Bears stalk Britain'. '£100M Typhoon [picture of GR4] grounded because Whitehall Says No'.... followed by the readers' comments, mostly along the lines of 'Time we left the EUSSR and dumped the LIBLABCON traitors. Vote UKIP!' or 'DO we still have an Air Force? Time we got rid of it and gave the Navy ships. Vote UKIP!'. ad naseum
* Uckers, of course
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Uckers
Just out of interest has anybody who ever left the RAF ever played Uckers since they left.
Have you ever met a civvie who would have the faintest idea what you were talking about if you asked them for a game.
Anyway back to Russia we'd do them at Uckers.
Cheers
Jon
Have you ever met a civvie who would have the faintest idea what you were talking about if you asked them for a game.
Anyway back to Russia we'd do them at Uckers.
Cheers
Jon
There may well be a greater purpose to QRA(I) than you seem to suggest.
TTN, sorry we woke you up. Must have been a real drag for you. I never realised that such an important part of the team resented it so much.
TTN, sorry we woke you up. Must have been a real drag for you. I never realised that such an important part of the team resented it so much.
Falklands War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Perhaps that's the reason.
. . . withdraw the Endurance, Britain's only naval presence in the South Atlantic) sent a signal to the Argentines that Britain was unwilling, and would soon be unable, to defend its territories . .
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Honour the threat I think is the term.
Send nothing or the most pathetic aircraft you have. Had the same opinion when they sent ships to Aus.
Aww come on Courtney Mil - if we hadnt been doing that it would have been something else, so I didnt resent it all. But surely it must have crossed your mind that we were playing a part in a big game (or did you actually think we were on the front line facing the red menace?)
Derrrr!
Because aircraft like this one:
Likes to snoop on our 'stuff' and aircraft like this one:
Likes to snoop on our V Boats...
Also taking piccies of their aircraft up close enables us to see what new sensors are fitted and what they may be able to detect. There are many variants of the TU95/TU142 and each has a specialised role - check out your search engine to learn more.
Also, the BEARs, BLACKJACKs and BACKFIREs don't have western transponders and so might bump into a civvy airliner as they don't trigger TCAS and their altimetry is in 'metres' rather than feet. So escorting them around in formation in our FIR is important as our transponders are visible. I think there was a serious AIRPROX in the Baltic very recently due to this very fact - don't forget that civvy ATC RADARs mostly rely on transponders and not primary RADAR returns.
Finally, some of the afore mentioned types can carry air to surface missiles (ASMs), nuke tipped, that could be used as a 'first strike' weapon without the type of warning you get from BMEWS at Fylingdales. Wouldn't you want "eyes on" if an adversary was flying in your FIR and within striking distance of your key assets?
Strategy lesson over...
LJ
PS. It's certainly not 'playing' and QRA is a deadly serious event for all concerned at the sharp end!
Because aircraft like this one:
Likes to snoop on our 'stuff' and aircraft like this one:
Likes to snoop on our V Boats...
Also taking piccies of their aircraft up close enables us to see what new sensors are fitted and what they may be able to detect. There are many variants of the TU95/TU142 and each has a specialised role - check out your search engine to learn more.
Also, the BEARs, BLACKJACKs and BACKFIREs don't have western transponders and so might bump into a civvy airliner as they don't trigger TCAS and their altimetry is in 'metres' rather than feet. So escorting them around in formation in our FIR is important as our transponders are visible. I think there was a serious AIRPROX in the Baltic very recently due to this very fact - don't forget that civvy ATC RADARs mostly rely on transponders and not primary RADAR returns.
Finally, some of the afore mentioned types can carry air to surface missiles (ASMs), nuke tipped, that could be used as a 'first strike' weapon without the type of warning you get from BMEWS at Fylingdales. Wouldn't you want "eyes on" if an adversary was flying in your FIR and within striking distance of your key assets?
Strategy lesson over...
LJ
PS. It's certainly not 'playing' and QRA is a deadly serious event for all concerned at the sharp end!
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Ok, now we know why we have QRA. It's all part of a strategy.
That's very re assuring.........as long as the first strike with Russian missiles launched at max range from their aircraft were part of a VERY small attack force
I wonder how well our QRA would cope with a small force of say forty Russian aircraft all in individual locations and heights and with fighter escorts and their bombers actually using their ECM stuff and defensive guns?
Of course, being a sneaky first strike the Russians would probably throw in a diversion of something like two civil airliners going off track and not responding to ATC.
After the RAF had launched QRA aircraft to respond to an airliner over Dundee and one over London how many QRA aircraft would be left to incercept and the destroy the forty Bombers and their escorts?
That's the first part of the strategy that might fail, now what about some pesky Russian subs that may also be waiting off shore to launch nukes at us at the same time so we don't get any warning with missile flight times, what is the RAF strategy to counter those?
Don't forget, the subs wouldn't even need to be launching nukes to reduce our response to zero. They could target RAF runways and any type 45s floating about and not on full alert........as it would be a sneak attack.
Going back to the strategy. As long as the Russians send an attack force of one, and as long as they don't launch any missiles until within visual range, and as long as they let the RAF get close enough to take photos (without using the Russian defensive guns) then we are OK
The readers of the daily mail only get upset when they hear that a Bomber got within ten miles of our coastline.............as their minds probably think the aircraft would be dropping bombs in the same manner as the RAF did over Germany in WW2
None of the above is to say we don't need QRA. I am sure we do, and that it is perhaps now even more serious and tense at times than it was during the Cold War, but that a call to intercept an airliner would focus the mind a lot more than a bear on a fairly predictable course on a probing mission.
That's very re assuring.........as long as the first strike with Russian missiles launched at max range from their aircraft were part of a VERY small attack force
I wonder how well our QRA would cope with a small force of say forty Russian aircraft all in individual locations and heights and with fighter escorts and their bombers actually using their ECM stuff and defensive guns?
Of course, being a sneaky first strike the Russians would probably throw in a diversion of something like two civil airliners going off track and not responding to ATC.
After the RAF had launched QRA aircraft to respond to an airliner over Dundee and one over London how many QRA aircraft would be left to incercept and the destroy the forty Bombers and their escorts?
That's the first part of the strategy that might fail, now what about some pesky Russian subs that may also be waiting off shore to launch nukes at us at the same time so we don't get any warning with missile flight times, what is the RAF strategy to counter those?
Don't forget, the subs wouldn't even need to be launching nukes to reduce our response to zero. They could target RAF runways and any type 45s floating about and not on full alert........as it would be a sneak attack.
Going back to the strategy. As long as the Russians send an attack force of one, and as long as they don't launch any missiles until within visual range, and as long as they let the RAF get close enough to take photos (without using the Russian defensive guns) then we are OK
The readers of the daily mail only get upset when they hear that a Bomber got within ten miles of our coastline.............as their minds probably think the aircraft would be dropping bombs in the same manner as the RAF did over Germany in WW2
None of the above is to say we don't need QRA. I am sure we do, and that it is perhaps now even more serious and tense at times than it was during the Cold War, but that a call to intercept an airliner would focus the mind a lot more than a bear on a fairly predictable course on a probing mission.
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Uckers
Uckers is still played a lot in pubs in the Barnstaple area, I think there may even be a local league, wonder if it is a long standing traditional game round there or maybe introduced by the Chivenor lads ?
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I still play Uckers on an irregular basis, seeing as I have my own board. Several visitors to Chez moi not only know the rules but are be happy to spend an evening consuming alcohol and shouting "split 'em"
Uckers in Devon
I believe it is/was called Euchre (sp?) in pastyland.
If this is the same game as Uckers, then there were many thriving leagues in the pubs and clubs surrounding Chivenor in the 1960s - not sure about today.
Uckers was BIG in the kipper fleet (MR squadrons) in the late 50s: my last experience of that excellent aircrew pastime was at Changi (RAF base, not jail) up to the time of the great East Of Suez withdrawal/downsize/end of the RAF as we knew it.
Sorry for adding to the thread drift.
If this is the same game as Uckers, then there were many thriving leagues in the pubs and clubs surrounding Chivenor in the 1960s - not sure about today.
Uckers was BIG in the kipper fleet (MR squadrons) in the late 50s: my last experience of that excellent aircrew pastime was at Changi (RAF base, not jail) up to the time of the great East Of Suez withdrawal/downsize/end of the RAF as we knew it.
Sorry for adding to the thread drift.
I wonder how well our QRA would cope with a small force of say forty Russian aircraft all in individual locations and heights and with fighter escorts and their bombers actually using their ECM stuff and defensive guns?