Helicopter in-flight re-fuelling
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It is nice of the US DOD to provide the UK with Long Range SAR service even at the risk of offending a few of their hosts by doing do.
We have to admit the one thing a few Brits really are not good at is eating Humble Pie.....especially if it involves some Spam.
The fact Long Range SAR is a secondary Mission for the USAF as their primary duties are CSAR and SpecOps work.
What we all have to remember is we are all on the same side in this and our Military have different capabilities and sharing those when needed is what it is all about.
I take my Hat off to all the SAR crews no matter what Uniform they wear or what Aircraft they fly. They all do great work.
We have to admit the one thing a few Brits really are not good at is eating Humble Pie.....especially if it involves some Spam.
The fact Long Range SAR is a secondary Mission for the USAF as their primary duties are CSAR and SpecOps work.
What we all have to remember is we are all on the same side in this and our Military have different capabilities and sharing those when needed is what it is all about.
I take my Hat off to all the SAR crews no matter what Uniform they wear or what Aircraft they fly. They all do great work.
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TwoStep asked: Are they still offering to do the same mission now they have the Ospreys or will it still fall to the Pave Hawks?
The default setting will routinely be the 56th RQS and their HH-60G Pave Hawks refueled in-flight by the 67th SOS and their MC-130J Commando II's (with the MC-130 refueled in-flight by 100th ARW KC-135). But, just like the Mighty Pave Low before them, if it was an urgent mission that required a high-speed air refuelable asset, the 7th SOS CV-22B could be deployed from Mildenhall drawing embedded PJ's from the 321st STS.
SJG
The default setting will routinely be the 56th RQS and their HH-60G Pave Hawks refueled in-flight by the 67th SOS and their MC-130J Commando II's (with the MC-130 refueled in-flight by 100th ARW KC-135). But, just like the Mighty Pave Low before them, if it was an urgent mission that required a high-speed air refuelable asset, the 7th SOS CV-22B could be deployed from Mildenhall drawing embedded PJ's from the 321st STS.
SJG
SJG & BB
why so defensive? I wasn't knocking Spam (your word) at all - merely replying to BEAG's assertion that 'we' couldn't. It was the Yarrawonga incidentally, well within Sea King HAR3 range at 240 nm. If I was knocking anything, which I wasn't, it would be the folk on the ground who plan these things. Hats off to all you guys who fly now!
There, feeling better now?
(And I love all sorts of pie BB)
why so defensive? I wasn't knocking Spam (your word) at all - merely replying to BEAG's assertion that 'we' couldn't. It was the Yarrawonga incidentally, well within Sea King HAR3 range at 240 nm. If I was knocking anything, which I wasn't, it would be the folk on the ground who plan these things. Hats off to all you guys who fly now!
There, feeling better now?
(And I love all sorts of pie BB)
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SJG
I believe AAR supported events went back well before Jan '89. I was involved in one such night operation in July '83 NW of Ireland. Two helos, a C130 tanker out of Keflavik and our Nimrod providing top cover/comms/navigational assistance. A Spanish fisherman had severed his foot and been taken onboard a Soviet fish factory. One helo illuminated the scene while the other did the lift. The JG couldn't speak to the ship so had to pass all comms through us. Pure navigational instructions ie turn port/starboard, increase/decrease speed were straight forward; trying to ensure that the Russian crew packed the severed foot in ice and ensured that it was with the casualty when he was lifted was another matter. After the lift we had to provided navigational and ATC assistance to both helos, one to Benbecula the other to Prestwick as they both had a combination of comms and nav failures. All in all a very interesting sortie. Also an example of when having top cover can be useful!
I believe AAR supported events went back well before Jan '89. I was involved in one such night operation in July '83 NW of Ireland. Two helos, a C130 tanker out of Keflavik and our Nimrod providing top cover/comms/navigational assistance. A Spanish fisherman had severed his foot and been taken onboard a Soviet fish factory. One helo illuminated the scene while the other did the lift. The JG couldn't speak to the ship so had to pass all comms through us. Pure navigational instructions ie turn port/starboard, increase/decrease speed were straight forward; trying to ensure that the Russian crew packed the severed foot in ice and ensured that it was with the casualty when he was lifted was another matter. After the lift we had to provided navigational and ATC assistance to both helos, one to Benbecula the other to Prestwick as they both had a combination of comms and nav failures. All in all a very interesting sortie. Also an example of when having top cover can be useful!
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Al-bert,
This thread is about Helicopter in-flight refueling and UK Forces STILL can't do it!
You reckon that your two Sea Kings could have flown out to the Yarrawonga and back (480nm) with enough time on station to winch sixteen guys into each cabin?! It's probably a good job they sent the Mighty Pave Low, otherwise they would have been winching you and your guys out of the drink too.
Quotes like: "taken rather a long time to get there" and "We could have been at the casualty a good hour or so before them" sounds like someone who was p1ssed off that he was sat at Shannon TUBMIN and had missed the show.
I don't blame you for knocking the folk on the ground who plan these things, they had two valuable assets sat at Shannon for nothing.
Incidentally, four weeks ago today I flew as an observer on a couple of CV-22 flights out of Mildenhall. During the evening flight we refueled twice off a 67th SOS MC-130J. Pitch black, NVG, no lights, minimal radio chatter - that's pure skill and those guys have balls of steel!
nimbev - very interesting! Did the Jolly Greens fly from Keflavik or Woodbridge?
Yes, top cover is essential. All, except the most recent, long range SAR's I previously listed were supported by the sadly missed Nimrod.
SJG
This thread is about Helicopter in-flight refueling and UK Forces STILL can't do it!
You reckon that your two Sea Kings could have flown out to the Yarrawonga and back (480nm) with enough time on station to winch sixteen guys into each cabin?! It's probably a good job they sent the Mighty Pave Low, otherwise they would have been winching you and your guys out of the drink too.
Quotes like: "taken rather a long time to get there" and "We could have been at the casualty a good hour or so before them" sounds like someone who was p1ssed off that he was sat at Shannon TUBMIN and had missed the show.
I don't blame you for knocking the folk on the ground who plan these things, they had two valuable assets sat at Shannon for nothing.
Incidentally, four weeks ago today I flew as an observer on a couple of CV-22 flights out of Mildenhall. During the evening flight we refueled twice off a 67th SOS MC-130J. Pitch black, NVG, no lights, minimal radio chatter - that's pure skill and those guys have balls of steel!
nimbev - very interesting! Did the Jolly Greens fly from Keflavik or Woodbridge?
Yes, top cover is essential. All, except the most recent, long range SAR's I previously listed were supported by the sadly missed Nimrod.
SJG
Super Jolly G - I know that we could have Jolly, we frequently approached 600nm round trips - but who gives a f@ck, it was along time ago and sure as hell I don't care now, nor do I care much that the UK doesn't have AAR - get over yourself please!
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SJG
Sorry, it was a long time ago, but I have always assumed the Jolly Green came from Woodbridge. I know the C130 came from Kef, at least that is where he went after AAR.
Sorry, it was a long time ago, but I have always assumed the Jolly Green came from Woodbridge. I know the C130 came from Kef, at least that is where he went after AAR.
SUPER JOLLY GREEN wrote:
Correct. But the UK really should have an AAR capability for Merlin and Chinook.
The mission to which I referred wasn't as long ago as the Yarrawonga; however, I don't recall which it was.
There are far too many capabilities which the UK no longer has - strategic bombing, strategic reconnaissance, maritime patrol, V/STOL....and even UAS training has been dumbed down to a few hours on the Plastic Pig when not playing pongos.....
This thread is about Helicopter in-flight refueling and UK Forces STILL can't do it!
The mission to which I referred wasn't as long ago as the Yarrawonga; however, I don't recall which it was.
There are far too many capabilities which the UK no longer has - strategic bombing, strategic reconnaissance, maritime patrol, V/STOL....and even UAS training has been dumbed down to a few hours on the Plastic Pig when not playing pongos.....
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Al-bert - Calm down dear, it's only a debate!
nimbev - the 67th ARRS (forerunners to the 67th SOS) had HH-3E Jolly Greens at Keflavik (Detachment 14) and the Sqn HQ was at Woodbridge with the Mighty HH-53C Super Jolly Green. The HC-130 tankers did a rolling Det to Kef from Woodbridge.
Beags - Damn right!
nimbev - the 67th ARRS (forerunners to the 67th SOS) had HH-3E Jolly Greens at Keflavik (Detachment 14) and the Sqn HQ was at Woodbridge with the Mighty HH-53C Super Jolly Green. The HC-130 tankers did a rolling Det to Kef from Woodbridge.
Beags - Damn right!
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There's your answer. The RAF's helicopters were designed/procured to move stuff around the UK and northern Europe, not to make long flights over water or hostile territory. Granted it didn't quite work out like that...
If the USAF/USMC's entire intended theatre of operations fitted between Boston and Cincinnati would they need/have AAR capability ?
Beags, why exactly 'should' the UK have a AAR refuelling capability? It might be nice in a world of unlimited resources etc but I struggle to see enough justification for it to reach anywhere near 'should' level of imperative. The Merlin's can carry either 4 or 5 hours of fuel without tanks; if you want to go crazy in a Chinook I think you can stick a few Ferry tanks in the back and make them go even longer! That is gonna see you sorted for 99%+ of you missions...
AAR refuelling in helicopters is dangerous, requires high levels of training to get qualified and lot's of hours to stay competent at it. While you are doing that chances are you neglecting another skill that might actually get used more often (unless you have more money, people, resources than you know what to do with). There are helicopter based skills/capabilities that the RAF/UK MOD probably 'should' have, but I really don't see AAR as being one of them.
AAR refuelling in helicopters is dangerous, requires high levels of training to get qualified and lot's of hours to stay competent at it. While you are doing that chances are you neglecting another skill that might actually get used more often (unless you have more money, people, resources than you know what to do with). There are helicopter based skills/capabilities that the RAF/UK MOD probably 'should' have, but I really don't see AAR as being one of them.
Avoid imitations
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AAR refuelling in helicopters is dangerous, requires high levels of training to get qualified and lot's of hours to stay competent at it. While you are doing that chances are you neglecting another skill that might actually get used more often (unless you have more money, people, resources than you know what to do with). There are helicopter based skills/capabilities that the RAF/UK MOD probably 'should' have, but I really don't see AAR as being one of them.
Always used to look slightly askance at the probe on the Chinook, which is 20+ feet from fuselage to rotor disc edge (I suppose I could Google the actual distance..) with said disc coming down to a very, very few feet vertical clearance from probe/hose combo. I used to think that if I ever had to practice the art I'd rather start on a single-rotor heli where the probe starts from a point on the fuselage well ahead of the mast.
First observed AAR from a trailling Chinook after an interesting (10.5 hour total) flight somewhere interesting-and-still-topical. Having led us for around 8 of those hours, the USAF 53 then turned away and plugged into a C130 - all NVG - at around 300 ft above the desert. A useful skill, and it would've freed up a lot of space otherwise needed in the cabin by the Robbies.
Display of ignorance alert: How many helis have the probe under/inside the disc - none/some/most/all?
First observed AAR from a trailling Chinook after an interesting (10.5 hour total) flight somewhere interesting-and-still-topical. Having led us for around 8 of those hours, the USAF 53 then turned away and plugged into a C130 - all NVG - at around 300 ft above the desert. A useful skill, and it would've freed up a lot of space otherwise needed in the cabin by the Robbies.
Display of ignorance alert: How many helis have the probe under/inside the disc - none/some/most/all?
I would have said all, but I really haven't studied all the Heli AAR platforms out there, so instead I will say almost all have the end of the probe inside the disk.
Ok, so Heli AAR isn't 'super dangerous' but it does incur a training burden that I would suggest isn't insignificant. And for what? So you can fly for a maximum of 9 hours (crew duty) to a trawler/ship/yacht etc a few hundred miles off the coast only to realise that no one on the crew has done wet winching or any form or relevant SAR training since Griffin at Shawbury/SARTU?! AAR is a great capability to say you possess, but not imho one that UK PLC need or 'should' have.
Ok, so Heli AAR isn't 'super dangerous' but it does incur a training burden that I would suggest isn't insignificant. And for what? So you can fly for a maximum of 9 hours (crew duty) to a trawler/ship/yacht etc a few hundred miles off the coast only to realise that no one on the crew has done wet winching or any form or relevant SAR training since Griffin at Shawbury/SARTU?! AAR is a great capability to say you possess, but not imho one that UK PLC need or 'should' have.
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Display of ignorance alert: How many helis have the probe under/inside the disc - none/some/most/all?
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