Doing the right thing?
OP, I'm sorry that the thread hasn't fulfilled your expectations. What was it you asked? Oh yes, what's the legal position of pilots involved in rendition flights? I don't have a clue, best ask your lawyer if you are concerned. I shouldn't worry though, it seems that international, local, or US jurisdictions are not seen as much of an issue.
BB, it's no use asking me what should be done about people being held under extraordinary rendition, you need to ask the people holding them. What are they going to do with them?
As to the UK (ie the UK Government) not asking for their nationals to be released, well they wouldn't would they? This whole mess relies on a web of complicity whereby the CIA has compromised us all, and we are all paying the price for it. When (if?) they are released, I imagine that any chance of prosecuting them through the UK Courts will be zero given the detention and treatment they have already received. On the contrary they are more likely to be pursuing HMG through the Courts instead. Funny old world, isn't it?
BB, it's no use asking me what should be done about people being held under extraordinary rendition, you need to ask the people holding them. What are they going to do with them?
As to the UK (ie the UK Government) not asking for their nationals to be released, well they wouldn't would they? This whole mess relies on a web of complicity whereby the CIA has compromised us all, and we are all paying the price for it. When (if?) they are released, I imagine that any chance of prosecuting them through the UK Courts will be zero given the detention and treatment they have already received. On the contrary they are more likely to be pursuing HMG through the Courts instead. Funny old world, isn't it?
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Americans - more pragmatic about harsh interrogation.
WSJ/NBC Poll: Most Americans Say CIA ?Harsh Interrogation? Acceptable - Washington Wire - WSJ
WSJ/NBC Poll: Most Americans Say CIA ?Harsh Interrogation? Acceptable - Washington Wire - WSJ
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Pragmatic or still remembering 911 when 3,000 of our Fellows were murdered by Terrorists and knowing there were other attacks coming if we did not find a way to stop them?
OK, I'll say it again for those who obfuscate in their postings:
Do NOT conflate CONCENTRATION CAMP with DEATH CAMP.
The concentration camp was used to deny support to irregular fighters.
Tragically, disease killed some detainees.
The death camp was set up to murder 100% of the inmates.
Do NOT conflate CONCENTRATION CAMP with DEATH CAMP.
The concentration camp was used to deny support to irregular fighters.
Tragically, disease killed some detainees.
The death camp was set up to murder 100% of the inmates.
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Basil,
We get your point.
But when you burn the house and barn, lock the people (men, women, and children) in Concentration Camps where disease 28,000 of 115,000 who are incarcerated, the difference gets awfully thin.
The Intent might differ but the end result approaches the same and that is what matters.
Look at what we did to the Japanese in WWII in our own country when FDR ordered them rounded up on the West Coast in comparison. We had no where the Death Rate and we did not burn down their Homes and destroy their Farms.
We get your point.
But when you burn the house and barn, lock the people (men, women, and children) in Concentration Camps where disease 28,000 of 115,000 who are incarcerated, the difference gets awfully thin.
The Intent might differ but the end result approaches the same and that is what matters.
Look at what we did to the Japanese in WWII in our own country when FDR ordered them rounded up on the West Coast in comparison. We had no where the Death Rate and we did not burn down their Homes and destroy their Farms.
BB, Look at what we did to the Japanese in WWII in our own country when FDR ordered them rounded up on the West Coast in comparison. We had no where the Death Rate and we did not burn down their Homes and destroy their Farms.
You didn't have irregulars fighting against you.
I think the US had every right to be concerned then just as are we now when attacked from within by Islamists who object to our foreign policy.
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The Western Countries do have a difficult situation re Radical islamics don't we.
Trying to assimilate those who shall not assimilate but are living within our Societies is not going to end well for anyone.
The solution to the problem is known but is not acceptable to either side.
They are not going to change and we are not going to return them to Sender.
So the problem just gets worse each day.
Trying to assimilate those who shall not assimilate but are living within our Societies is not going to end well for anyone.
The solution to the problem is known but is not acceptable to either side.
They are not going to change and we are not going to return them to Sender.
So the problem just gets worse each day.
Allegations of murder and torture . . "deliberate lies"
BBC News - Al-Sweady Inquiry: UK army murder claims 'deliberate lies'
blindfolding the prisoners, depriving them of food and sleep and using threatening interrogation techniques*
Poor dears!
The A&SH must have calmed down a bit since I was attached to a TA regiment.
Historical note: The A&SH did very well against the Japs in Malaya.
*Although "See you, ya bas; dae ye waant a malky in the jaksy." may, due to misunderstanding, have failed to intimidate as intended.
Allegations of murder and torture made against British soldiers by Iraqi detainees were "deliberate lies", a five-year public inquiry has ruled.
The £31m Al-Sweady Inquiry found claims that up to 20 Iraqis were killed and mutilated after a 2004 battle were "reckless speculation".
The hearing took evidence about the actions of soldiers from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and the Princess of Wales Royal Regiment, who were ambushed by insurgents, leading to a three-hour gun battle that became known as the Battle of Danny Boy.
Sir Thayne, a former High Court judge, found there had been instances of ill-treatment during "tactical questioning" of the detainees at Camp Abu Naji, near Majar-al-Kabir in southern Iraq, on the night of 14 May.
These included blindfolding the prisoners, depriving them of food and sleep and using threatening interrogation techniques contrary to the Geneva Convention.
But Sir Thayne said Iraqi detainees who alleged they were tortured and abused - and subjected to mock executions - had given evidence that was "unprincipled in the extreme" and "wholly without regard to the truth".
The £31m Al-Sweady Inquiry found claims that up to 20 Iraqis were killed and mutilated after a 2004 battle were "reckless speculation".
The hearing took evidence about the actions of soldiers from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and the Princess of Wales Royal Regiment, who were ambushed by insurgents, leading to a three-hour gun battle that became known as the Battle of Danny Boy.
Sir Thayne, a former High Court judge, found there had been instances of ill-treatment during "tactical questioning" of the detainees at Camp Abu Naji, near Majar-al-Kabir in southern Iraq, on the night of 14 May.
These included blindfolding the prisoners, depriving them of food and sleep and using threatening interrogation techniques contrary to the Geneva Convention.
But Sir Thayne said Iraqi detainees who alleged they were tortured and abused - and subjected to mock executions - had given evidence that was "unprincipled in the extreme" and "wholly without regard to the truth".
Poor dears!
The A&SH must have calmed down a bit since I was attached to a TA regiment.
Historical note: The A&SH did very well against the Japs in Malaya.
*Although "See you, ya bas; dae ye waant a malky in the jaksy." may, due to misunderstanding, have failed to intimidate as intended.
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Another historical note:
In fact the A&SH did so well that most of the battalion spent the remainder of the war as POW's after the surrender of an entire, intact and functional British Army under Percival.
The Brits had their revenge, ensuring the execution of the Japanese commander in circumstances which did the presiding authority little credit, and in consequence establishing the Yama****a Standard. This has never been overruled and, if enacted today, would leave the Commanders-in-Chief and Heads-of-Agencies of many Western organisations squirming in their comfy seats.
As an aside, a visit to the Battle Box where Percival decided to throw in the towel is well worth it, if only for a stroll around the surrounding grounds.
In fact the A&SH did so well that most of the battalion spent the remainder of the war as POW's after the surrender of an entire, intact and functional British Army under Percival.
The Brits had their revenge, ensuring the execution of the Japanese commander in circumstances which did the presiding authority little credit, and in consequence establishing the Yama****a Standard. This has never been overruled and, if enacted today, would leave the Commanders-in-Chief and Heads-of-Agencies of many Western organisations squirming in their comfy seats.
As an aside, a visit to the Battle Box where Percival decided to throw in the towel is well worth it, if only for a stroll around the surrounding grounds.
Last edited by Mr.Noritake; 17th Dec 2014 at 17:06. Reason: To add the & to the ASH and some other minor correction
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Dear Basil,
I disagree.
Lauding the performance of a small unit in a disastrous and humiliating defeat lacks credibility. Private Bloggs may well fight alone in his foxhole until he's overrun, but if his unit collapses without offering equally stiff resistance, his actions could be described as pointless. Scale that up and you have the actions of A&SH placed in the context of the actions of the British Army in Singapore - pointless.
And my main point was - in the context of this thread - regarding the existence of the Yama****a Standard as it relates to command responsibility for the actions of subordinates, whether knowledge of their actions exist or not.
I disagree.
Lauding the performance of a small unit in a disastrous and humiliating defeat lacks credibility. Private Bloggs may well fight alone in his foxhole until he's overrun, but if his unit collapses without offering equally stiff resistance, his actions could be described as pointless. Scale that up and you have the actions of A&SH placed in the context of the actions of the British Army in Singapore - pointless.
And my main point was - in the context of this thread - regarding the existence of the Yama****a Standard as it relates to command responsibility for the actions of subordinates, whether knowledge of their actions exist or not.
No, lauding the performance of the A&SH in Malaya is completely divorced from Singapore. If you cannot see that then I will make no further attempt to enlighten you.
I re-iterate: "blindfolding the prisoners, depriving them of food and sleep and using threatening interrogation techniques" is nothing compared with the actions of the Japanese Imperial Army everywhere they went.
They behaved like savages.
Why this conduct should take place escapes me. I guess that the Japanese soldiery were rather less civilised than I'd expect.
Ask the Chinese about Nanking.
Allegedly Chinese civilians being buried alive.
The one of a tied-up man being bayoneted seems to have been withdrawn.
Sorry about this but you did ask for it.
Anyhoo - the message appears to be: "Don't f**kin' lose!"
Then you get to write the history.
Oh, so sorry; I forgot that sort of stuff doesn't appear in Japanese history books anyway.
I re-iterate: "blindfolding the prisoners, depriving them of food and sleep and using threatening interrogation techniques" is nothing compared with the actions of the Japanese Imperial Army everywhere they went.
They behaved like savages.
Why this conduct should take place escapes me. I guess that the Japanese soldiery were rather less civilised than I'd expect.
Ask the Chinese about Nanking.
Allegedly Chinese civilians being buried alive.
The one of a tied-up man being bayoneted seems to have been withdrawn.
Sorry about this but you did ask for it.
Anyhoo - the message appears to be: "Don't f**kin' lose!"
Then you get to write the history.
Oh, so sorry; I forgot that sort of stuff doesn't appear in Japanese history books anyway.
Last edited by Basil; 17th Dec 2014 at 20:08.
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Lauding the performance of a small unit in a disastrous and humiliating defeat lacks credibility. Private Bloggs may well fight alone in his foxhole until he's overrun, but if his unit collapses without offering equally stiff resistance, his actions could be described as pointless.
Really? I mean like....Really?
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Dearest Basil,
If you find something noble in dying for a lost cause then you have more in common with the members of the IJA than you seem to realise.
I don't need to ask the Chinese about Nanjing. I lived there for ten months in 2004 and heard the stories first hand.
I've neither the time nor inclination to educate you on Japanese culture in the early-to-mid 20th century, but before you set off on rants which do you little credit you may care to educate yourself about this subject in greater detail. Understanding a culture does not equate to approval of its actions, but it does offer insight into why events occur, and once you understand the 'why's' life becomes a little less black and white.
In the context of this thread there are those who have suggested precisely this; that actions are based on circumstance, and that circumstance can create approval for actions which would, in other situations, be abhorrent.
I have a considerable personal dislike of Japanese culture. My dislike is based on an understanding of Japanese society, yet this understanding permits me to place atrocities such as Nanjing into a context where individual actions, though reprehensible by my standards, fall within the parameters of the culture of the perpetrators.
Does that make sense to you? Probably not. I'm guessing you're a black and white soul. Shades of grey are an anathema to you.
Ho hum.
If you find something noble in dying for a lost cause then you have more in common with the members of the IJA than you seem to realise.
I don't need to ask the Chinese about Nanjing. I lived there for ten months in 2004 and heard the stories first hand.
I've neither the time nor inclination to educate you on Japanese culture in the early-to-mid 20th century, but before you set off on rants which do you little credit you may care to educate yourself about this subject in greater detail. Understanding a culture does not equate to approval of its actions, but it does offer insight into why events occur, and once you understand the 'why's' life becomes a little less black and white.
In the context of this thread there are those who have suggested precisely this; that actions are based on circumstance, and that circumstance can create approval for actions which would, in other situations, be abhorrent.
I have a considerable personal dislike of Japanese culture. My dislike is based on an understanding of Japanese society, yet this understanding permits me to place atrocities such as Nanjing into a context where individual actions, though reprehensible by my standards, fall within the parameters of the culture of the perpetrators.
Does that make sense to you? Probably not. I'm guessing you're a black and white soul. Shades of grey are an anathema to you.
Ho hum.