National Defence Medal is a medal for doing nothing
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National Defence Medal is a medal for doing nothing
Apparently!
It doesn't bother me either way because I no longer serve but a National Defence Medal might mean something to owners too, Bob. I wonder if members of the Armed Forces really are "unanimously against the idea of awarding a medal for nothing" - don't we value those who don't deploy and do relatively little in support roles as much as those who do deploy? Its rarity would be the same as the Jubilee medals.. but the intent behind it would be different, that's all. Does that make it any less valuable?
House of Commons Hansard Debates for 11 Nov 2014 (pt 0002)
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con):
It doesn't bother me either way because I no longer serve but a National Defence Medal might mean something to owners too, Bob. I wonder if members of the Armed Forces really are "unanimously against the idea of awarding a medal for nothing" - don't we value those who don't deploy and do relatively little in support roles as much as those who do deploy? Its rarity would be the same as the Jubilee medals.. but the intent behind it would be different, that's all. Does that make it any less valuable?
House of Commons Hansard Debates for 11 Nov 2014 (pt 0002)
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con):
I rise to oppose the Bill because medals mean something to those who have them. In the military they denote gallantry, operational duty, good service, or special occasions such as when Her Majesty the Queen grants a jubilee medal. For me, medals worn on the chest can rapidly sum up someone’s service. Medals mean a lot. I recall that Napoleon said, “Men will do much for a scrap of ribbon.” To the services, medals mean a lot, and the gaining of them is terribly important. Medals should not be granted for nothing, and for that reason I oppose the Bill, albeit with some reluctance.
A gallantry medal is self-explanatory, and anyone wearing one is looked on specially by his or her peers. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) has a brace of operational service medals. Those mean that someone has put his or her life in harm’s way for our country. Good or long-service medals are rewards for a serviceman or woman who has spent a long time and done very good work in the services, and they are richly deserved. Finally, special occasion medals are different, because servicemen and women do not consider them in the same category as the others.
My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt), who is sitting behind me, served for 12 distinguished years in the cavalry—
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Undistinguished by a medal.
Bob Stewart: As he says, undistinguished by a medal. He has told me that he does not expect or want a medal; he thinks it wrong for him to have a medal for not having served operational duty in his time.
The soldiers, sailors and airmen of our armed forces wear a uniform and they are proud of that, but do we automatically put a medal on a uniform when we issue it? No. Members of the armed forces who I have talked to are unanimously against the idea of awarding a medal for nothing. That is the truth, and I oppose the national defence medal on those grounds.
I shall not call for a Division on this matter because my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) is a friend, and I understand his motives and wishes. It is Armistice day. However, I do want to register the fact that the national defence medal is not necessarily something that the armed forces or people who have served in them wish to have put on their chests without earning it.
A gallantry medal is self-explanatory, and anyone wearing one is looked on specially by his or her peers. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) has a brace of operational service medals. Those mean that someone has put his or her life in harm’s way for our country. Good or long-service medals are rewards for a serviceman or woman who has spent a long time and done very good work in the services, and they are richly deserved. Finally, special occasion medals are different, because servicemen and women do not consider them in the same category as the others.
My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt), who is sitting behind me, served for 12 distinguished years in the cavalry—
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Undistinguished by a medal.
Bob Stewart: As he says, undistinguished by a medal. He has told me that he does not expect or want a medal; he thinks it wrong for him to have a medal for not having served operational duty in his time.
The soldiers, sailors and airmen of our armed forces wear a uniform and they are proud of that, but do we automatically put a medal on a uniform when we issue it? No. Members of the armed forces who I have talked to are unanimously against the idea of awarding a medal for nothing. That is the truth, and I oppose the national defence medal on those grounds.
I shall not call for a Division on this matter because my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) is a friend, and I understand his motives and wishes. It is Armistice day. However, I do want to register the fact that the national defence medal is not necessarily something that the armed forces or people who have served in them wish to have put on their chests without earning it.
Members of the armed forces who I have talked to are unanimously against the idea of awarding a medal for nothing
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They also serve who only stand and wait.
It could be said that the wartime National Defence Medal was of the same ilk.
Can it be said of any Serviceman that they did not support the frontline?
A 5-year qualification, like the Jubilee medals might be appropriate as it would differentiate from National Service.
Where someone qualified for a campaign medal but served less than 5 years, they too should qualify.
Certainly those with a chest full would not see any need, but what of the Cold War warriors? For instance an air miss with a May, or sitting in a Cb bro g struck by lightning over an hour was a lot more dangerous than sitting in the Mess at ASI.
It could be said that the wartime National Defence Medal was of the same ilk.
Can it be said of any Serviceman that they did not support the frontline?
A 5-year qualification, like the Jubilee medals might be appropriate as it would differentiate from National Service.
Where someone qualified for a campaign medal but served less than 5 years, they too should qualify.
Certainly those with a chest full would not see any need, but what of the Cold War warriors? For instance an air miss with a May, or sitting in a Cb bro g struck by lightning over an hour was a lot more dangerous than sitting in the Mess at ASI.
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Surely the LSGC is an award for "not doing nothing naughty" (or at least being found out) 
As to the NDM, I'm not sure why a medal should be awarded gratis for just joining up. I therefore have to agree with Bob Stewart, despite the fact that I would like some pretty medals
As to the NDM, I'm not sure why a medal should be awarded gratis for just joining up. I therefore have to agree with Bob Stewart, despite the fact that I would like some pretty medals
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Its a bit like the Veterans badge, never bothered with that and wouldn't with this either.
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Nutty, I have a trinket box full of pins or badges including RAFA. Each one means something to someone and shows affinity.
You, in your suit without a badge would be AN Other.
We have someone coming to give a talk on the RAFBF; I shall wear my veterans badge and appropriate tie.
On ties, two of us, ex-12, wore our sqn tie. A former sqn cdr, an Air Cmdr of a younger age did not recognise it
You, in your suit without a badge would be AN Other.
We have someone coming to give a talk on the RAFBF; I shall wear my veterans badge and appropriate tie.
On ties, two of us, ex-12, wore our sqn tie. A former sqn cdr, an Air Cmdr of a younger age did not recognise it
This thread triggered a memory of Maj Bob Pomeroy, the USAF lecturer in the War Studies Dept at the Towers in the 60s, who had the usual (American) chest full of medals. In his cups after a dining in he would point to one medal: "That was for chasing girls", then point to another: "That was for catching them". Lovely guy, sadly killed during the Vietnam War
Members of the armed forces who I have talked to are unanimously against the idea of awarding a medal for nothing. That is the truth, and I oppose the national defence medal on those grounds.
I mean, after almost 13 years of involvement in Afghanistan and then Iraq, surely we are now passed the willy-waving of you've only earned a medal if you have half a dozen contacts before lunch and then have to exfil on foot, under fire, without food or water for 10 days before sleeping in a hole in the ground to earn so much as a certificate of attendance let alone a medal???
I've said it before and I'll say it again. We criticise the US but we have also got it wrong. If memory serves, the War Medal during WW2 was for something like 28 days service in the Forces and the Defence Medal was for longer periods of 'non-combat' for want of a better phrase service over a longer period (3 years?). So why, if we have had medals with those criteria in the past, can we not do something similar now? How about a hybrid of the 2 whereby you ensure there is a degree of having earned it by setting the bar suitably high such as after first productive tour ? That way you recognise actual service without individuals pulling a fast one and qualifying for it half way through basic training.
The first time I saw a medal of this ilk was on a visit to the USAF Academy in the '60s. I noticed that the cadets and staff were wearing the same medal ribbon. On enquiring as to its significance I was informed that, 1965 had been declared "National Defense Year" and all members of the armed forces serving in that year had been awarded the medal.
I later learned that it was more commonly referred to as " Alive in '65". Says it all really.
YS
I later learned that it was more commonly referred to as " Alive in '65". Says it all really.
YS
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YS, I don't know any detail on US awards or the rigor required to qualify, but I think they have a ribbon when a unit wins a citation. That covers the "this OBE is for all of you and the hard work you have put in" but I am the one who gets to wear it.
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When I did the International Air Cadet Exchange in 63 (with C4 and others) I was accommodated by the family of an 18-yo CAP Cadet Colonel with an impressive chest (of medals). My trembling pointing fingers asked what they were for ... She explained "this is for the basic exam, this is for the intermediate exam, this is for the advanced exam ... And this is for passing all 3 exams." At this point I realised that the system was VERY silly, and concentrated on her chest instead.
I later learned that it was more commonly referred to as " Alive in '65". Says it all really.
She explained "this is for the basic exam, this is for the intermediate exam, this is for the advanced exam ... And this is for passing all 3 exams." At this point I realised that the system was VERY silly, and concentrated on her chest instead.
But importantly, what was her chest like??
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Problem with the current medals qualification system means that for some of the smaller more limited ops, the only people who qualify are the pjhq/command blunties who seem to pitch up for the qualification period plus a day before going home, or those who get in the way by refusing to repay laundry costs for aircrew on ops.
Those "doing the job", Ie, directly providing air effect, don't get a look in.
It's also interesting to see the influence of the army who seem to get op allowance for every op they are involved in, yet other shooty AORs don't get considered when it's a primarily air campaign.
Those "doing the job", Ie, directly providing air effect, don't get a look in.
It's also interesting to see the influence of the army who seem to get op allowance for every op they are involved in, yet other shooty AORs don't get considered when it's a primarily air campaign.
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The one I thought should have been for all was the Silver Jubilee one, not the let's hold a raffle for it...
PN I could always wear my GSM, not that I would
PN I could always wear my GSM, not that I would
You can't blame the Army for looking after their own Vin Rouge. Having done countless Joint jobs over the years, I've seen at first hand how the Army will work the system to ensure their troops are appropriately acknowledged, whilst the RAF seems to regard the whole issue of medals, awards and op allowances as being a nuisance that takes up valuable time that could be better used drinking.
I remember putting my FS in for an award for the sheer effort he put into being an outstanding example in his primary duties; months later a MBE duly turned up. It was the list that CAS at the time commented that whilst it was great that RAF personnel were getting involved in the community, why was there only one citation for operational excellence and commitment - my FS's award.
I remember putting my FS in for an award for the sheer effort he put into being an outstanding example in his primary duties; months later a MBE duly turned up. It was the list that CAS at the time commented that whilst it was great that RAF personnel were getting involved in the community, why was there only one citation for operational excellence and commitment - my FS's award.
but I think they have a ribbon when a unit wins a citation.
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Leggett, well done. Too many recs got diverted as you say.
Nutty, a GSM would be OTT but would certainly work
No, the appropriate symbol is the best for the occasion. The Pussers suitcase was instantly recognizable as a Angelo on shore leave and perfect for hitch hiking.
Nutty, a GSM would be OTT but would certainly work
No, the appropriate symbol is the best for the occasion. The Pussers suitcase was instantly recognizable as a Angelo on shore leave and perfect for hitch hiking.
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If you watch the Band of Brothers they get one.
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Melchett,
Ref army comparison, do you think there has been some meritocracy inspired snobbery about it? You know, almost a ".. we're above that kind of self grandiosing adornment", whereas, with the army, they're a lot less hung up about it?
A NDM would allow someone to reflect with pride and not feel so dislocated after service - in itself important when transitioning to civvy street. I never wore mine for ages after I left, until I eventually reflected that I was showing respect for my background and for those with whom I served, by occasionally dusting them off.
Just my way of looking at it.
Ref army comparison, do you think there has been some meritocracy inspired snobbery about it? You know, almost a ".. we're above that kind of self grandiosing adornment", whereas, with the army, they're a lot less hung up about it?
A NDM would allow someone to reflect with pride and not feel so dislocated after service - in itself important when transitioning to civvy street. I never wore mine for ages after I left, until I eventually reflected that I was showing respect for my background and for those with whom I served, by occasionally dusting them off.
Just my way of looking at it.