Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

F35 C first deck landing

Wikiposts
Search
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

F35 C first deck landing

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 18th Nov 2014, 04:37
  #181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Engines
As I'be posted before, the original F-35C arresting gear design complied with all the standards and specifications required. The 'hook to main gear' distance was not specified.
Originally Posted by SpazSinbad
The HORNET family shape works with their geometry. The story is that someone gave someone else some dud data - misplaced decimal point wise. The text stories are out there whilst this is the word from the VADM responsible at HOOK13. Talk about FeyDecoyDunawayNavSysCom.... WOOPS - thanks 'Engines' (seems as if I was typing whilst you were posting....).
Yes - for some time now the Navy has admitted the data-set concerning wire/hook/wheel interaction that they gave both the LM F-35C team and the NG X-47B team was "faulty".

And NG has said that they had to redesign their hook as well - as they had also made the main wheels>hook distance too short, and the hook was bouncing over the wire.
http://www.pprune.org/7932438-post2990.html

The reasons they were allowed to just "get on with it" without a huge uproar in the media were:

1. Not a man-rated aircraft, therefore fewer hoops to jump through

2. Lack of an organized rabid body of frothing-at-the-mouth opponents, grabbing every hint of bad news and screaming with everything they have that "this proves the F-35 is fatally-flawed, and is nothing more than L/M's way to steal from the people". Sound familiar?
GreenKnight121 is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2014, 06:58
  #182 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: crewe
Age: 77
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pioneering A New Frontier: The Men Behind The F-35C | Nimitz News Online
david parry is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2014, 13:31
  #183 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neverland
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
GK121

How much has been spent to date on the X47?
How much has been spent to date on the F35?
How many times has the X47 been presented as the only, all fulfilling, solution?

Your summary of the opposition to the F35, such as it is, is overly simplistic and self serving given your clear liking for the beasty.
Snafu351 is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2014, 16:13
  #184 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: crewe
Age: 77
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
http://www.cpf.navy.mil/news.aspx/010332
david parry is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2014, 17:04
  #185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes on 45 Posts
From the 'david parry' link above - below: [and good to see the team success acknowledged by USN in the last 'david parry' link]

Pioneering A New Frontier: The Men Behind The F-35C | Nimitz News Online

https://nimitznews.files.wordpress.c...4p00625_31.jpg

De Last Hook pic and "Ya Gotta Land Here Son 'Cause This is Where the Food is" LSO Funnie Call Photie.


SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2014, 23:14
  #186 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes on 45 Posts
VX-23 Strike Test News Quotes Sep 2014 F-35B/C

Just so's youse blokesses and blokes wot are going to be flying the RN F-35Bs (the one with the waggerly tail) news about dem is included. :-)

VX-23 Strike Test News 2010 - 14 INDEX:
Welcome to the Naval Air Warfare Center - Aircraft Division | www.navair.navy.mil/nawcad

VX-23 Strike Test News 2014 [02 Sep 2014]:
"SHORT TAKEOFF AND VERTICAL LANDING (STOVL)
The F-35B continued sea trials last summer aboard the USS Wasp (LHD 1). Lessons learned from the previous ship trials in 2011 were incorporated and evaluated. Centerline tracking during short takeoffs (STOs) was drastically improved with the combination of an improved NWS schedule and the use of the Three-Bearing Swivel Nozzle (3BSN) for yaw control. BF-1 and BF-5 were utilized for the sea trials to further expand the wind and performance envelope for F-35B STOVL operations on L-class ships. Mission systems testing, to include the Night Vision Camera (NVC) and Distributed Aperture System (DAS) was accomplished by BF-4.

The F-35B STOVL envelope expansion continued last year. The Rolling Vertical Landing (RVL), Creeping Vertical Landing (CVL), Vertical Landing (VL), Slow Landing (SL), Short Take Off (STO) and Vertical Takeoff (VTO) envelopes were all expanded. RVL testing included main runway testing with some crosswind testing. CVL testing began and was completed on both the main runway and the Expeditionary Airfield (EAF). The VL wind envelope was further expanded, with up to 10 knots of tail wind and 15 knots of crosswind. SL and STO testing included crosswind expansion out to 20 knots, completed primarily at Edwards Air Force Base and NAWS China Lake during a wet runway and crosswind detachment. STOVL formation testing began this year, which included formation STOs and SLs. VTO expansion occurred concurrently with AM2 soft soil pad certification....
&
...F-35C CARRIER SUITABILITY
This is a very exciting time for F-35C Carrier Suitability team. We have been busy testing the F-35C at our unique shore-based catapult and arresting gear test facility to ensure it can withstand the punishing forces associated with shipboard flight operations. The TC-7 catapult and Mk-7 arresting gear sites at NAS Patuxent River, Maryland and Naval Air Warfare Center Aircraft Division (NAWCAD) - Lakehurst located aboard Joint Base Mcguire-Dix-Lakehurst, New Jersey, are fleet representative and almost identical to the equipment aboard today's CVNs. In addition to arrested landings, the team has been hard at work validating the current control laws in preparation for initial sea trials, as well as developing a new set of control laws to increase safety margins and boarding rates.

The road to initial sea trials began in December 2013 with the return to flight of CF-3 — the third F-35C aircraft to roll off of the production floor — after receiving a redesigned hook during a major modification period. The first order of business was to ensure the new hook worked. The team traveled to sunny Lakehurst in January to conduct arresting gear roll-ins. During this phase of testing, we targeted an engaging speed and validated loads on the arresting hook. After achieving the maximum engaging speed, we executed off-center engagements to a maximum of 20 feet off-centerline. The team successfully completed more than 35 roll-in engagements with no hook skips. We used the data from the roll-ins to create an interim Aircraft Recovery Bulletin (ARB) for use at the Patuxent River Mk-7 site and during initial sea trials. Having gained confidence in the new hook system, the team returned to Patuxent River to conduct the next phase of testing — structural survey — in which we evaluate the aircraft structural strength to ensure that it is sufficient for shipboard operations. This is accomplished by conducting several series of arrested landings outside of a normal touchdown envelope. The landing series consist of high sink landings, rolled-yawed landings, maximum engaging speed landings and free flight landings. The free flight landing is similar to an in-flight engagement since the hook engages the cross deck pendant prior to the main wheels touching down; however, the aircraft still has a downward vector. The ultimate goal of this testing is to ensure the aircraft can handle the harsh forces it will experience while a nugget is safely executing night CQ.

The F-35C team as a whole is busy developing the next generation of control laws that aim to increase boarding rates and safety margins while operating around the aircraft carrier. A new control scheme called Delta Flight Path (DFP) is featured on the F-35C. DFP is a form of autopilot in which a flight path is commanded, nominally 3 degrees. The pilot is then free to make lineup corrections with lateral stick without the need to compensate for lost lift with power or longitudinal stick inputs. If the pilot requires a glideslope correction, the sink rate can be increased or decreased using forward or aft stick until a center ball is achieved and then release the stick input. The control laws will then return the aircraft to the commanded flight path. The pilot will have the ability to change the desired glideslope as required by the environmental conditions for any given day. DFP’s goal of increasing boarding rate and safety margin has shown promise during field testing. But, as all good naval aviators know, the boat is the great equalizer and we are eagerly awaiting the opportunity to test DFP during initial sea trials...."
http://www.navair.navy.mil/nawcad/in...ownload&id=820 (PDF 2.8Mb)

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 18th Nov 2014 at 23:16. Reason: spaces are killin' me + PDF size
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2014, 23:39
  #187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes on 45 Posts
Youse crabs get no respect from nasal radiators - but NOT IN A BAD WAY - just a funny way... BE WARNed in this early PDF edition the pages are for printing and NOT in order one may expect (look top left or right).

STRIKE TEST NEWS Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 23 Newsletter Spring/Summer 2010
"Sqn Ldr Steve “Schlong” Long"
page 18 (mit photo): http://www.navair.navy.mil/nawcad/in...ownload&id=824 (2.8Mb PDF)

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 18th Nov 2014 at 23:49. Reason: what else
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 02:41
  #188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Snafu351
GK121

How much has been spent to date on the X47?
How much has been spent to date on the F35?
How many times has the X47 been presented as the only, all fulfilling, solution?

Your summary of the opposition to the F35, such as it is, is overly simplistic and self serving given your clear liking for the beasty.
OK, lets be clear here.

1. I don't know, I haven't seen that info.


2. A lot more, but that is because the F-35 is a nearly-complete program which has created a highly-sophisticated combat aircraft.

The X-47 is still just a technology demonstrator - it is at exactly the same stage of development as the X-35 was in ~2002 (hint - X = experimental aircraft to test and develop technologies, F = developed combat aircraft).


3. Far too many times, mainly by people who don't know what they are talking about - and that statement does not match up with reality.

The X-47 has NO combat capability in its current form, to catch up with the F-35 it will need a major redesign to add combat capability to the airframe, which will cost a lot more than what has been spent to date.

There are a lot of other possible solutions for a combat UCAV to operate from carriers, depending on desired range/payload/capability, as demonstrated by the disagreement between the USN and Congress over the desired capabilities of the Unmanned Carrier-Launched Airborne Surveillance and Strike (UCLASS) program.
The USN wants a low-combat recon platform (with strike capabilities similar to current UCAVs, with the addition of A-A missiles to be controlled by F/A-18s or F-35s), as they are seeing UCLASS as a technology development program to properly mature the technology without overspending.
Congress wants the USN to go straight to a high-end strike fighter version - despite the USN believing the technology isn't mature enough for that - and despite the much higher costs that program objective would bring.


Your post appears to be on the opposite side of me, and lacks something of reality.

You seem to believe that anyone who does not oppose the F-35 must automatically be rabidly and uncritically supportive of it - this is not true.
As hard as it may be for you to believe, there are many, like myself, who support the aircraft while ALSO both recognizing and being annoyed by the errors, flaws, and mismanagement that has plagued the program - just as there are those who disagree with the continuance of the program but base that on reason and undistorted facts, and who also accept when the program has successes.

I was speaking only of the rabid unreasoning haters, and it appears you believe I am one of the blind unreasoning supporters. You are wrong about me.
GreenKnight121 is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 05:31
  #189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Far West Wessex
Posts: 2,580
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Well, GK, if you must insist despite all evidence on the existence of "an organized body of rabid frothing-at-the-mouth opponents", please don't act all upset when someone thinks you might just be a leetle extreme in your own views.

By the way, interesting note from the Navy link cited above:

"The engineers responsible for the aircraft's control laws at Pax (Patuxent) River and Fort Worth have done a phenomenal job designing a carefree aircraft from the pilot's perspective," said Cmdr. Tony Wilson, DT I Team Lead. "The F-35C's performance on the ball was revolutionary, providing carefree handling on approach. The Integrated Direct Lift Control (IDLC) allows ball control like no other aircraft.... And, Delta Flight Path is an innovative leap in aircraft flight controls - this command enables the F-35 to capture and maintain a glideslope, greatly reducing pilot workload, increasing safety margins during carrier approaches and reducing touchdown dispersion."

Delta Flight Path, aka Magic Carpet, is a recent innovation in addition to DLC (which the Super Hornet already has). So changes to the control laws are a big reason for the success of the tests (so far) and even if the hook had not been a problem, the jet would not have been ready for CV tests back in 2010.
LowObservable is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 06:24
  #190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes on 45 Posts
Any evidence for your claim 'LO'? In the same way the Hornet Family flies the ball without 'Magic Carpet' or IDLC - the F-35C could do the same - yet without the obvious pinpoint accuracy of today perhaps. Auto throttle was standard in the early F-35C with whatever else available at the time. Sheesh. Meatball / Line Up and Airspeed (Opt AoA) is always the basic method - then throw in whatever 'magic' is available in any particular aircraft at the time. Simple. The article quoted below is no longer at old URL but is likely somewhere out there along with the X-35C graphic in the PDF mentioned at second URL.

Naval joint strike fighter: A glimpse into the future of naval aviation
Steve Weatherspoon 2002
"...The larger wing enables an approach speed of less than 140 knots with nearly 9,000 lbs of bringback. Just as importantly, the addition of ailerons, larger horizontal tails and rudders, and an innovative integrated direct lift control (IDLC) assure precise ball flying. The designers recognized early on that a relatively slick (due to stealth) configuration combined with a powerful, high rotational mass engine, could cause glide slope control problems. By integrating direct lift control (using drooped ailerons) with the throttle, the pilot is able to make near instantaneous glide slope corrections, using throttle only to precisely fly the ball. Full autothrottle & Mode I capabilities are also available. Outstanding results were demonstrated in 250 field carrier landing practice (FCLP) landings with contractor and Navy pilots in the X-35C Navy JSF test aircraft in the winter of 2001....”
X-35C Handling Qualities
“IDLC Performance was Excellent.”(Throttle Modes)
“Crosswind Landing was Easily Controlled.”
“Airplane is Solid Through The Pattern. AOA Control is Solid. Good Control of Glideslope.”(Manual FCLPs)
“Use of APC Reduced Workload Significantly Throughout the Pattern.”
http://sstc-online.org/proceedings/2...racs/p1417.pdf (2002)

F-35C IDLC started to be mentioned from 2012 in media stories and videos.
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 06:25
  #191 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: crewe
Age: 77
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Might be of interest, on this thread??? China unveils new stealth fighter at air show- Nikkei Asian Review
david parry is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 07:08
  #192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes on 45 Posts
A lot of the old USN lags will have flown the TA-4J to their first jet arrest and catapult most likely. Single engine with manual hydraulic controls and WOW electric trim AND designed to carrier deck land - which it did very nicely along with all the other A-4 family. For sure carrier aircraft have come a long way baby. Some A-4s from about C/F onwards had APC (which could be deselected - like most 'auto throttles' I believe) whilst the A4G did not. BTW the first F-35C CF-01 had first flight 06 June 2010.

F-35 New Flight Control Software NAVAIRSYSCOM Published on Jul 24, 2012
"A F-35 Joint Strike Fighter test pilot discusses new flight control software to aid in carrier approaches. Video courtesy of Lockheed Martin."

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 19th Nov 2014 at 07:17. Reason: spac & add text
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 07:36
  #193 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes on 45 Posts
CHECK out the SuperHorny or just Horneto pilot control movements during a carrier landing. We could guess he ain't on auto throttle. Yee Hah... The Nov 2013 video does not have the follow up mentioned in it. Quotable Quote perhaps gives an indication to those familiar with the Hornet Family.

Grim Reapers July 2014 Mark Ayton; AIR International F-35 Special Edition
"...Flying the F-35C...
...“Based on the way it handles in the landing pattern I would say it [F-35C] certainly wouldn’t be any more difficult to land on the ship than a Super Hornet. The F/A-18C Hornet is one of the most enjoyable aeroplanes to land on the boat, because you can put it exactly where you want it to be. Based on what the engineers and test pilots say about the F-35C, with flight control law upgrades, it should also attain pilot-friendly landing pattern handling characteristics that resemble those of an F-18C – that’s good for a single-engine aeroplane...."
F-35C LM Nov 2013 Seminar Arresting Hook Test Progress

Super Hornet FA-18E Control Movements Carrier Landing

USN Deck Landings Control Movements

Sea Legs Pt2 Arrest Structure Test Pax & Lake

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 19th Nov 2014 at 07:47. Reason: Quotable Quote FWIW
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 14:05
  #194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes on 45 Posts
Magic Carpet Weaving - the tale

A good (now old?) story about MAGIC CARPET development....

Project Magic Carpet A Breakthrough in Carrier Aircraft Landing
Mr. John Kinzer, Program Officer, Air - Vehicle Technology, Office of Naval Research; innovate Vol. 10 | Spring 2013
"...MAGIC CARPET technology development is continuing. Flight control augmentation for lineup is being developed and tested in the flight simulator, and HUD displays are being refined. Planning is underway to conduct testing of the control laws and displays in both the F/A–18E/F and the F-35C...."
http://www.onr.navy.mil/Science-Tech...t13-Vol10.ashx

Some more SALTY woids....

Shipboard Automated Landing Technology Innovation Program
John Kinzer Aircraft Technology Program Officer, ONR 351, 2 November 2011
[quote]"Shipboard Automated Landing Technology Innovation (SALTI) :-) VISION
All sea based naval aircraft, manned and unmanned, fixed wing and rotary wing, will utilize optimally automated ship launch and recovery to the operating limits of the ship / aircraft system...
... • Flight training
- reduction in training time / cost (decrease in ship landing initial training, qualification, and currency requirements)
- indirect benefits may include reduced environmental impact and public complaints due to FCLPs (noise), cost of equipping, maintaining, and manning outlaying landing fields, etc.
&
SALTI Technical Objectives
• Precise automated approach and glideslope control
- Reduced susceptibility to wind gusts and turbulence
- Accommodation of high sea states, higher winds from all directions, degraded visual environment
- Precise, predictable touchdown: reduced scatter in sink rate, sideloads, touchdown spot, hook-to-ramp distance, centerline deviations..."
http://www.defenseinnovationmarketpl...ing%20Tech.pdf (0.7Mb)

My fav 'MagiiCarpet' by SteppinFetchitWolof Video: Magic F-18 Ride Uploaded on Jun 1, 2006

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 19th Nov 2014 at 14:19. Reason: no to now & more salty woids
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 14:46
  #195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes on 45 Posts
Lockheed Martin's Navy JSF Completes Historic Flight-Test Program. PATUXENT RIVER, Md., March 12 [2001] /PRNewswire/
"...I could tell from the first flight that the X-35C was going to be representative of a very good carrier plane. When we began aggressive FCLPs (field carrier landing practices) the aircraft really showed off its superb responsiveness and controllability," said test pilot Joe Sweeney, a former U.S. Navy carrier pilot. "We deliberately forced errors in the glide slope, speed and line-up, challenging the plane's ability to respond, and it performed exceedingly well. I can't say enough about this engineering and flight test team."

During an FCLP (FCLP = Field Carrier Landing Practice) the pilot shoots an approach exactly as he would on an aircraft carrier. The X-35C, which features a larger wing and control surfaces than the other JSF variants, completed 250 FCLPs during testing.

"We put the airplane through a battery of practice carrier approaches in a very short time. The airplane's performance was outstanding," said Lt. Cmdr. Greg Fenton, a U.S. Navy test pilot assigned to the X-35. "Several of Strike's Landing Signal Officers (LSOs) got an opportunity to observe the airplane 'on the ball', and were quite impressed with its ability to handle intentional deviations during the practice carrier landings...."
Lockheed Martin's Navy JSF Completes Historic Flight-Test Program. - Free Online Library
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 15:57
  #196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
" F-35 is a nearly-complete program which has created a highly-sophisticated combat aircraft."

It ain't nearly complete and it's still really an aspiration rather than a reality
Heathrow Harry is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 16:55
  #197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes on 45 Posts
Delta Flight Path excerpt [3minsmax] from video (info below). Go there for other bits about the aircraft (one hour long).


Joint Strike Fighter Roundtable: What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say? DoD News Published on Feb 12, 2014
"What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say? at the WEST 2014 Conference.
Moderator:
Mr. Ward Carroll, Editor-in-Chief, Military.com
Panelists:
- LCDR Michael Burks, Senior Navy Test Pilot for F-35
- CDR Frederick Crecelius, Commanding Officer, VFA-101
- William Gigliotti, F-35 Lighting II, FW Site/Production Lead Test Pilot Lockheed Martin Corporation
- LtCol Steve Gillette, Commander Officer, VMFA-121. (1hr)"
Resolution Bitrate Size
Download 486x274 300kbps 170 MB
Download 720x406 800kbps 380 MB
Download 720x406 1500kbps 675 MB
Download 1280x720 3000kbps 1 GB
Download 1280x720 7998kbps 3 GB

DVIDS offers video downloads in MP4 format. All videos are encoded with the h.264 video codec and AAC audio at a variety of sizes and qualities.
DVIDS - Video Download
OR

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 19th Nov 2014 at 17:00. Reason: spaxs
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 21:01
  #198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes on 45 Posts
Perhaps one day we will see the F-35C version?

A Quick Lap Around the Boat Published on Aug 30, 2014
"Outstanding short video, by John Ivancic, of a quick lap around the USS Theodore Roosevelt in a T-45 Goshawk- under 2 minutes from catapult to trap. John is a pilot with the VT-9 Tigers, one of the two U.S. Navy strike jet training squadrons based at Naval Air Station Meridian in Mississippi."

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 19th Nov 2014 at 21:04. Reason: spc
SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2014, 00:09
  #199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,581
Likes: 0
Received 52 Likes on 45 Posts
Where IS the MAGIC CAR - PET?

Where IS the PET?

SpazSinbad is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2014, 04:09
  #200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry
It ain't nearly complete and it's still really an aspiration rather than a reality
107 "unreal aspirations" delivered by 31 December 2013, with another 36 by 31 December 2014.
GreenKnight121 is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.