Phantom FGR.2 - upgrades planned before 1990?
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Phantom FGR.2 - upgrades planned before 1990?
Being interested in military aviation history, especially the Cold War, I've stumbled upon some questions which I haven't been able to answer yet. Since there are many people here who actually flew/maintained/controlled UK Phantoms, this must be the perfect place for those questions 
With the end of the CW and the following array of defense reviews in Western armed forces, some things didn't turn out exactly the way they had been planned pre-1990. One example of which seems to be the FGR.2 in RAF service. Unfortunately, I've only got superficial knowledge about the Cold War RAF so far, gathered mainly from the Internet, so I hoped that you could help me with those questions.
1) Am I right in believing that the Tornado F.3 had only been intended to be a partial replacement for the Phantom? So far, I haven't found any evidence that any ADVs were bound for the Wattisham squadrons or RAFG. Of course, those bases were axed in 1992, but to me, this seems to be the result of the post-Cold War drawdowns rather than restructurings planned on a long-term basis.
2) If some Phantoms were to be kept in service beyond the FOC of the F.3s, had there been any plans to modernize the remaining fleet (something like the Luftwaffe ICE program)? I know that the British Phantoms got those new, awkward-looking RWRs on top of their fins at some point in the 70s, but apart from that, I can't recall any major upgrades during their RAF service. But then again, my knowledge is, like I said, only superficial
Thanks for helping!
With the end of the CW and the following array of defense reviews in Western armed forces, some things didn't turn out exactly the way they had been planned pre-1990. One example of which seems to be the FGR.2 in RAF service. Unfortunately, I've only got superficial knowledge about the Cold War RAF so far, gathered mainly from the Internet, so I hoped that you could help me with those questions.
1) Am I right in believing that the Tornado F.3 had only been intended to be a partial replacement for the Phantom? So far, I haven't found any evidence that any ADVs were bound for the Wattisham squadrons or RAFG. Of course, those bases were axed in 1992, but to me, this seems to be the result of the post-Cold War drawdowns rather than restructurings planned on a long-term basis.
2) If some Phantoms were to be kept in service beyond the FOC of the F.3s, had there been any plans to modernize the remaining fleet (something like the Luftwaffe ICE program)? I know that the British Phantoms got those new, awkward-looking RWRs on top of their fins at some point in the 70s, but apart from that, I can't recall any major upgrades during their RAF service. But then again, my knowledge is, like I said, only superficial
Thanks for helping!
Pre Cold War drawdown the plan was always to retain the Wattisham and Wildenrath wings with the FGR2, supported by the OCU at Leuchars, until the introduction of the Eurofighter Typhoon, an a/c that was originally, for the British, intended as a Jaguar/Phantom replacement.
The OCU folded to provide manpower for Gulf War 1, and the remaining FGR2 squadrons went in 1992 as part of the Tory defence cuts that followed the ending of the Cold War.
Not aware of any major modification programmes intended, beyond fatigue mods to keep the ageing relics in the air.
The OCU folded to provide manpower for Gulf War 1, and the remaining FGR2 squadrons went in 1992 as part of the Tory defence cuts that followed the ending of the Cold War.
Not aware of any major modification programmes intended, beyond fatigue mods to keep the ageing relics in the air.
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Mark Mainwaring, the 1992 final display season Nav, released two videos of the final few years of Phantom ops (great videos, by the way!), towards the end of the first video there is an interview with a 74 Sqn pilot (I think it might've been Nick Spiller?). He mentions that there were a number of upgrades in the pipeline prior to the decision to chop the Phantom force. He doesn't elaborate on what they were, and I doubt they were anything like as comprehensive as other nations, such as Israel, Germany, Japan, Greece and Turkey...
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The RR Spey was in process of upgrade, material changes to turbine blades and efficient HP compressor. Also had in increase in thrust to approx 25000 lb reheated.
The OCU folded to provide manpower for Gulf War 1, and the remaining FGR2 squadrons went in 1992 as part of the Tory defence cuts that followed the ending of the Cold War.
The subjective "Tory defence cuts" suggests that you wouldn't have done so in the same position? weren't the cuts on this occasion justified, indeed forced, on the Government to implement given the new circumstances with the Conventional Arms in Europe Reduction Treaty? (I think I've got the title about right) Surely, these cuts didn't need a great deal of explaining?
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Originally Posted by XV410
The RR Spey was in process of upgrade, material changes to turbine blades and efficient HP compressor. Also had in increase in thrust to approx 25000 lb reheated.
Bearing in mind that had the Cold War continued and the Berlin Wall stayed upright, the Typhoon would have come into service a lot quicker than it did in reality, and it would have replaced the Wattisham and Wildenrath Phantoms as planned. What's the best guess on when the last FGR.2 would have been retired in that scenario?
From distant memory, a proper HUD was part of the proposed update program. I think also (less sure) of HOTAS, but not an internal gun. A strengthening/fatigue package which included wing work.
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Thank you very much for all the answers so far - very interesting and exactly what I had hoped for!
@Martin the Martian: From what I've heard and read, the German hesitation to commit to the Eurofighter program pre-1997 might have cost 3 - 5 years alone. So I'm guessing, the original in-service date for Typhoon could have been somewhere between 1998 and 2001? Of course, I'm taking a stab in the dark here, but sometimes, those what-ifs really are intriguing
By then, the remaining FGR.2s would have seen around 30 years of service. Pr00ne spoke of them as being "ageing relics" in 1992 already, so the question remains whether this would have been feasible at all.
@Martin the Martian: From what I've heard and read, the German hesitation to commit to the Eurofighter program pre-1997 might have cost 3 - 5 years alone. So I'm guessing, the original in-service date for Typhoon could have been somewhere between 1998 and 2001? Of course, I'm taking a stab in the dark here, but sometimes, those what-ifs really are intriguing
By then, the remaining FGR.2s would have seen around 30 years of service. Pr00ne spoke of them as being "ageing relics" in 1992 already, so the question remains whether this would have been feasible at all.
'Proposed' is a long way from 'accepted'
It was somebody's job, with all aircraft types in Service, to propose life extensions, not least because replacements get delayed, but also because it's often easier to upgrade than buy new, and the threat changes also (e.g. the F4J buy).
It was somebody's job, with all aircraft types in Service, to propose life extensions, not least because replacements get delayed, but also because it's often easier to upgrade than buy new, and the threat changes also (e.g. the F4J buy).
I briefly found myself as the last AWG 10/11/12 project manager because my predecessor had been allowed to retire as the OSD was looming. Then there was a bit of a panic; as exhorder says probably caused by delays elsewhere. At that time, as with Merlin for example, Eurofighter's avionics were ready years before the air vehicle and thus almost immediately obsolescent.
As Fox3 rightly says (in so many words) an aspiration is not a requirement until funded and endorsed. There were many aspirations on Phantom but the "5 year rule" kicked in. That is, the OSD is declared and, for the last 5 years, no enhancement is permitted unless driven by safety. Operational? Forget it. Funding drops by 20% per year. Then, in the early 90s, AMSO (Alcock) decreed not even safety work would be permitted. The combination of these factors caused mild arrhythmia in senior RAF ranks and even after the final shut down task was complete they would hold meetings at Ferranti (South Gyle, Edinburgh) to see what could be done by way of improvement, on the cheap and hiding it from Suppliers (who held the money under Alcock's regime) and BCs.
This is why slippage is such a bitch. Most projects concentrate on what it means to the new project, but very few think of seeking a re-setting of the 5 year rule and OSD of the old kit. These posts (same ones referred to by Fox3) were more or less disbanded by 1991. The RN got shot of theirs in late 1987 under the Hallifax Savings. Since then there has been no meaningful management of the Air Plans.
As Fox3 rightly says (in so many words) an aspiration is not a requirement until funded and endorsed. There were many aspirations on Phantom but the "5 year rule" kicked in. That is, the OSD is declared and, for the last 5 years, no enhancement is permitted unless driven by safety. Operational? Forget it. Funding drops by 20% per year. Then, in the early 90s, AMSO (Alcock) decreed not even safety work would be permitted. The combination of these factors caused mild arrhythmia in senior RAF ranks and even after the final shut down task was complete they would hold meetings at Ferranti (South Gyle, Edinburgh) to see what could be done by way of improvement, on the cheap and hiding it from Suppliers (who held the money under Alcock's regime) and BCs.
This is why slippage is such a bitch. Most projects concentrate on what it means to the new project, but very few think of seeking a re-setting of the 5 year rule and OSD of the old kit. These posts (same ones referred to by Fox3) were more or less disbanded by 1991. The RN got shot of theirs in late 1987 under the Hallifax Savings. Since then there has been no meaningful management of the Air Plans.
Eurofighter EF-2000 was renamed when it wouldn't meet its 96-98 ISD. It was later renamed Typhoon when 2000 was looking unlikely!
The info on the FGR and F4J being replaced by Typhoon is correct. However, after the wall came down and Brit F4s were canned, I thought I would get 1-2 tours on F3s before becoming a war criminal in the other type of Tonka!
LJ
The info on the FGR and F4J being replaced by Typhoon is correct. However, after the wall came down and Brit F4s were canned, I thought I would get 1-2 tours on F3s before becoming a war criminal in the other type of Tonka!
LJ
