Telegraph - RAF bare bones article
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Telegraph - RAF bare bones article
Full article below. Much hype some truth. Whilst the RAF can contribute, can they sustain?
DT
By Ben Farmer, Defence Correspondent
6:00PM BST 25 Sep 2014
Air Chief Marshall Sir Michael Graydon says the RAF is at “rock bottom” after years of cuts and sustaining air strikes against Isil would be “quite a stretch”
Britain will struggle to mount a lengthy air campaign against Islamic State militants in Iraq because its air force has been reduced to the “bare bones” by defence cuts, a former head of the RAF has warned.
Air Chief Marshall Sir Michael Graydon said the RAF was at “rock bottom” after years of cuts and sustaining air strikes against Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (Isil) fighters would be “quite a stretch”.
MPs are on Friday expected to back a Government motion authorising a bombing campaign on Isil targets in Iraq to try to help the Baghdad government beat back the militants who have seized large parts of northern Iraq.
RAF Tornados stationed at RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus are poised to begin bombing as soon as the weekend.
Ministers have warned the campaign to defeat Isil will be a long haul that could take years.
Sir Michael, a former Chief of the Air Staff, said with fighters already committed to defending UK air space and operations in Afghanistan, Nigeria, and the Falklands, the RAF would be badly stretched to take on a new campaign.
He said: “The lack of combat air craft is a major weakness in our make up. This has been raised time and time again and basically ignored. We really are at rock bottom.”
The RAF is short of pilots and navigators, while the longer the campaign carried on, the more wear and tear would hit the reliability of the ageing Tornados, he said.
Sir Michael, vice president of the UK National Defence Association, said: “To sustain this operation is going to be quite a stretch.”
Britain currently has just seven combat-capable air squadrons, compared to 15 for the French air force.
Air Cdre Andrew Lambert said: “I think it’s doable, but we are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. There’s nothing more there, so let’s hope Ukraine doesn’t bubble up into something nasty.
“I think ministers are just coming back to being briefed on this and realising how far they have taken it.
“Weapons stocks are parlous and when you chuck this all together, it’s a pretty poor position. We have too few air craft, too few pilots and too much tasking.”
British combat jets have been sent to the Baltic to police Nato air space this year and also to Nigeria to search for kidnapped school girls in Nigeria.
Six RAF Tornados have been stationed in Cyprus for the past six weeks and have been flying surveillance flights over northern Iraq.
The jets could begin dropping Paveway IV guided bombs and Brimstone missiles within hours of the Prime Minister giving orders.
DT
By Ben Farmer, Defence Correspondent
6:00PM BST 25 Sep 2014
Air Chief Marshall Sir Michael Graydon says the RAF is at “rock bottom” after years of cuts and sustaining air strikes against Isil would be “quite a stretch”
Britain will struggle to mount a lengthy air campaign against Islamic State militants in Iraq because its air force has been reduced to the “bare bones” by defence cuts, a former head of the RAF has warned.
Air Chief Marshall Sir Michael Graydon said the RAF was at “rock bottom” after years of cuts and sustaining air strikes against Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (Isil) fighters would be “quite a stretch”.
MPs are on Friday expected to back a Government motion authorising a bombing campaign on Isil targets in Iraq to try to help the Baghdad government beat back the militants who have seized large parts of northern Iraq.
RAF Tornados stationed at RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus are poised to begin bombing as soon as the weekend.
Ministers have warned the campaign to defeat Isil will be a long haul that could take years.
Sir Michael, a former Chief of the Air Staff, said with fighters already committed to defending UK air space and operations in Afghanistan, Nigeria, and the Falklands, the RAF would be badly stretched to take on a new campaign.
He said: “The lack of combat air craft is a major weakness in our make up. This has been raised time and time again and basically ignored. We really are at rock bottom.”
The RAF is short of pilots and navigators, while the longer the campaign carried on, the more wear and tear would hit the reliability of the ageing Tornados, he said.
Sir Michael, vice president of the UK National Defence Association, said: “To sustain this operation is going to be quite a stretch.”
Britain currently has just seven combat-capable air squadrons, compared to 15 for the French air force.
Air Cdre Andrew Lambert said: “I think it’s doable, but we are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. There’s nothing more there, so let’s hope Ukraine doesn’t bubble up into something nasty.
“I think ministers are just coming back to being briefed on this and realising how far they have taken it.
“Weapons stocks are parlous and when you chuck this all together, it’s a pretty poor position. We have too few air craft, too few pilots and too much tasking.”
British combat jets have been sent to the Baltic to police Nato air space this year and also to Nigeria to search for kidnapped school girls in Nigeria.
Six RAF Tornados have been stationed in Cyprus for the past six weeks and have been flying surveillance flights over northern Iraq.
The jets could begin dropping Paveway IV guided bombs and Brimstone missiles within hours of the Prime Minister giving orders.
A sad day for you Poms when your colonials send a better and bigger fast jet component than you 
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Good post...
Whilst I don't disagree that the current UK declared fast jet component is small, the GR4 is bloody good at its business. The force has been dropping weapons in large quantities every year since 98. I think six battle hardened tonkas with some of the worlds best weapons and all that rests behind is worth more than a virgin F-18 sqn...
Whilst I don't disagree that the current UK declared fast jet component is small, the GR4 is bloody good at its business. The force has been dropping weapons in large quantities every year since 98. I think six battle hardened tonkas with some of the worlds best weapons and all that rests behind is worth more than a virgin F-18 sqn...
Same in the Daily Mail,
Six Tornados will lead the blitz against ISIS- but former air chief says RAF is at 'rock bottom' | Daily Mail Online
Isn't it a pity that their 'airships' did not speak out publically when they were in the service and resign as a matter of principle, or did they fear a Dr Kelly being done on them?
Six Tornados will lead the blitz against ISIS- but former air chief says RAF is at 'rock bottom' | Daily Mail Online
Isn't it a pity that their 'airships' did not speak out publically when they were in the service and resign as a matter of principle, or did they fear a Dr Kelly being done on them?
How many GR4s are in flyable storage and how many tornado crew's are in other posts, may have increase squadron sizes or stand some more squadrons up again.
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RAF is still a formidable thing, despite the cuts. A tribute to its crews and ground staff.
I never thought of it at the time, but I wonder if it was ever thought to ask if we could use RAF Cyprus instead of UAE as a base? Much closer. And a pleasant and safe place for crews.
I never thought of it at the time, but I wonder if it was ever thought to ask if we could use RAF Cyprus instead of UAE as a base? Much closer. And a pleasant and safe place for crews.
Last edited by rjtjrt; 26th Sep 2014 at 01:04. Reason: Typo
Telegraph - RAF bare bones article
You wouldn't have to look too far back into the annals of Pprune history to find evidence of politicians, senior officers and, let's be honest, half the people on this forum complaining about how the RAF is too FJ centric.
We should have more helicopters and stuff the FJs was the general consensus.
Maybe we just need to admit that it's time to stop cutting useful equipment and stand united in our views. We need everything we have. And more.
BV
We should have more helicopters and stuff the FJs was the general consensus.
Maybe we just need to admit that it's time to stop cutting useful equipment and stand united in our views. We need everything we have. And more.
BV
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Given that Flightglobal.com reported this week that "Tornado Could Fly Into 2030s", what are the chances of it staying in RAF service into the 2020s now that the world is not a warm, fuzzy place full of rainbows and unicorns?
I think they'd struggle to regenerate enough to keep the GR4 going for 10+ years on top of its planned OSD. We don't have a FJ navigator training system anymore! We've cut the force down to 2 front line squadrons and an OCU. I imagine the OCU would struggle with suddenly getting enough refreshers to stand up another squadron, never mind re-training 100-odd engineers, and moving enough people around the force to keep dilution and experience at sensible levels.
The 5th Typhoon squadron is just a flight right now but is in the process of standing up. Maybe getting the chequebook out and paying for the proper integration of the GR4's weapon set into Typhoon, and admitting that the original plan for 7 sqns (maybe 6 as a compromise!) was a better idea would help us sustain "years" of bombing IS.
The 5th Typhoon squadron is just a flight right now but is in the process of standing up. Maybe getting the chequebook out and paying for the proper integration of the GR4's weapon set into Typhoon, and admitting that the original plan for 7 sqns (maybe 6 as a compromise!) was a better idea would help us sustain "years" of bombing IS.
NP,
I think that with what is going on in the world, together with an unproven Typhoon strike capability, the chances of the pitifully small Tornado force continuing longer than currently planned is a certainty!
I think that with what is going on in the world, together with an unproven Typhoon strike capability, the chances of the pitifully small Tornado force continuing longer than currently planned is a certainty!
The current PM has talked down the value of what he calls pointy jets and while a better emphasis on non-FJ was undoubtedly important, as with everything else it's a case of striking the right balance. Recent events seem to be pointing up that current plans do not have the balance quite right.
That is something SDSR 2015 will need to look at. For one thing, the idea that in 2019 the nascent F35 force will be able seamlessly to step into the shoes of the highly developed Tornado capability sounds more than a tad optimistic. Rescinding the decision to bring Tornado OSD forward from 2022 would be a helpful first step that would buy some breathing space, without trying to string Tornado out too far.
After that, making provision at least for a second batch of say 20 F35 to allow generation of a third front line squadron in the early mid 2020s would be proportionate and achievable. And necessary. Doing nothing more between the initial 48 and Typhoon OSD doesn't strike me as a good idea.
That is something SDSR 2015 will need to look at. For one thing, the idea that in 2019 the nascent F35 force will be able seamlessly to step into the shoes of the highly developed Tornado capability sounds more than a tad optimistic. Rescinding the decision to bring Tornado OSD forward from 2022 would be a helpful first step that would buy some breathing space, without trying to string Tornado out too far.
After that, making provision at least for a second batch of say 20 F35 to allow generation of a third front line squadron in the early mid 2020s would be proportionate and achievable. And necessary. Doing nothing more between the initial 48 and Typhoon OSD doesn't strike me as a good idea.
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Would we still be on the bones of our arse if mod had funded swing role and ground attack on tiffy instead of a more advanced radar? Seems to me decisions are being made to ensure the longevity of a 2 fast jet fleet when actually, one should be able to manage both roles by now?
Also suspect there may be a bit of gamesmanship in the offing at the mo, especially with sdsr 2015 around the corner and options being persued.
About time the strategic defence was taken back off the mod's books to unload the budget perhaps?
Rescinding decisions may not be so easy, particularly with training streams (FJ WSOP) programmed to end at some stage...
Also suspect there may be a bit of gamesmanship in the offing at the mo, especially with sdsr 2015 around the corner and options being persued.
About time the strategic defence was taken back off the mod's books to unload the budget perhaps?
Rescinding decisions may not be so easy, particularly with training streams (FJ WSOP) programmed to end at some stage...
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These senior officers never speak up when in the forces.
How do they expect people to follow and put their lives on the line when they show no leadership qualities or military ethic themselves???
They're nearly as bad as politicians.
How do they expect people to follow and put their lives on the line when they show no leadership qualities or military ethic themselves???
They're nearly as bad as politicians.
I wonder how the training system will cope full stop if you decide to change the numbers; the FJ pilot training world has been in perilous state recently, and I don't know if there's the manpower to ramp it up any more. If you decide you need to add a few extra GR4 pilots to the existing plans for Typhoon and LII guys over the next 5 years or so, it has a surprising impact on the whole system.
Never mind the requirement to start retraining navs. Even if it was a small number, you're looking at more QFIs at the BFJT and AFT/TW stages, and extra ones double-hatted as QPNIs at the BFJT level plus bolstering 100 Sqn. Then you need to maintain the experience and numbers on the 2 existing GR4 sqns, while increasing the numbers on the OCU to cope with the increased training throughput, all while generating enough people to form a 3rd squadron, say...?
If you take everyone who left II(AC) Sqn and send them all back, then all of their new jobs will need filling too; and if many of them wound up at 100 Sqn, 1 or 4 FTSs, then those jobs will be critical to sustaining and building any increased number of GR4 crews for the future.
It's the problem when you cut this small and that finely. Going back isn't particularly easy. This is all assuming everyone says "yes," when guys being sent back to the GR4 are facing what, 5 more years on a 2-squadron force, with a constant commitment to Akrotiri and flying over Syria and northern Iraq?
The last time we had a 2/3 sqn force sent on ops it eventually broke it pretty fundamentally. That time there was another force about to stop one op that moved into the other. This time we don't have that, as Typhoon's heavily committed to QRA, Baltic air policing, the FI, etc etc.
Be interesting to see if they extend or increase the GR4. I'd love to see some expansion instead of contraction...!!
Never mind the requirement to start retraining navs. Even if it was a small number, you're looking at more QFIs at the BFJT and AFT/TW stages, and extra ones double-hatted as QPNIs at the BFJT level plus bolstering 100 Sqn. Then you need to maintain the experience and numbers on the 2 existing GR4 sqns, while increasing the numbers on the OCU to cope with the increased training throughput, all while generating enough people to form a 3rd squadron, say...?
If you take everyone who left II(AC) Sqn and send them all back, then all of their new jobs will need filling too; and if many of them wound up at 100 Sqn, 1 or 4 FTSs, then those jobs will be critical to sustaining and building any increased number of GR4 crews for the future.
It's the problem when you cut this small and that finely. Going back isn't particularly easy. This is all assuming everyone says "yes," when guys being sent back to the GR4 are facing what, 5 more years on a 2-squadron force, with a constant commitment to Akrotiri and flying over Syria and northern Iraq?
The last time we had a 2/3 sqn force sent on ops it eventually broke it pretty fundamentally. That time there was another force about to stop one op that moved into the other. This time we don't have that, as Typhoon's heavily committed to QRA, Baltic air policing, the FI, etc etc.
Be interesting to see if they extend or increase the GR4. I'd love to see some expansion instead of contraction...!!
Whoops, I was speaking a few weeks in advance... given that they've already started picking staff for a reformed Typhoon II Sqn, I guess they best make some decisions quickly...!
the GR4 are facing what, 5 more years on a 2-squadron force, with a constant commitment to Akrotiri and flying over Syria and northern Iraq?
To be slightly fair to the Air Chief Marshal in question, he did stand up to the politicians when he was in. He had a pop at Portaloo when he wes SofS Def and was told to resign or apologise; he chose to apologise knowing that he had already scored a DH with the press.
As for the RAF - my guess is we are on the verge of implosion. We can no longer surge the tarining pipeline because we have no irreducible spare capacity and we have contracted everything out. We have insufficient crews across all of the frontline squadrons whether FJ, ME or RW and there is virtually no way of regenerating them because the OCUs do not have any spare capacity. We don't have sufficient aircraft because we don't have sufficient grdouncrew or spares holdings because of leaning and "just too late" policies. We don't keep a proper level of capability becuase of the barking mad decsion that you cannot increase aircrew/groundcrew numbers during transition to a new type, but have to drawdown one capability early to allow the new one to build up. Alll this means is that you take out the fully capable fleet with nothing to replace it ewhilst it works up, trains and buildds experince and its TTPs. HMFC is a shadow of its former self; we keep taking "savings" to pay for Gucci future shiney toys rather than spending money on keeping a capability in service up to its OSD and waiting until the new tech has matured a little bit!
