UK Armed Forces Pay Review Body 2015
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In the Ether
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I appreciate that this thread concerns AFPRB but when will they learn that it's not about pay, moreso the "non-remunerative issues" that have impinged on Service life over the last decade or so. These are different depending on your branch, location or rank but, broadly speaking, a smaller 'expeditionary' force, with greater civilian contractual support simply means more time away from home for those in blue.
Many fleets see no end to the dets and it's effectively a become a singlies life. All along, allowances are cut to the core and, when at home, there's still little flex to partake in AT, sport or any form of regenerative training.
With TELIC III on the cards in the coming days, these are the issues that will make or break.
Back to the OP's letter though...at what point does a 20% real terms pay cut not become an issue?
Many fleets see no end to the dets and it's effectively a become a singlies life. All along, allowances are cut to the core and, when at home, there's still little flex to partake in AT, sport or any form of regenerative training.
With TELIC III on the cards in the coming days, these are the issues that will make or break.
Back to the OP's letter though...at what point does a 20% real terms pay cut not become an issue?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Whyte House
Age: 95
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
5F6B, a train driver's basic wage is ~£50k. Depends very much on the company though, varies from £45K-£55K. That's for a 35hr 4 day week (an industry 'standard'). With overtime? Working a 5 day week throughout the year would add ~£15K on top. Couple of people where I work were on £75K before tax last FY. Training takes about a year on a reduced wage of ~£25K + overtime, say around £30K. 7 weeks leave a year, 5 day weekend every 3 weeks. Final salary pension too...
Last few years' pay rises where I work (most recent, 2014, first) were 2.7%, 3.2%, 5.5%(!), 3.7%. O.K., I'm not going to 'make a million' and pay off the mortgage in the next five years, but it pays for an enjoyable life, nice holidays and lots of treats for the family.
But best of all, I enjoy going to work - and I enjoy going home again when the only thing to 'worry' about is what time* I need to set the alarm for.
*Frickin' early sometimes, it has to be said, but getting home before 09:00 on those days is a bonus.
Last few years' pay rises where I work (most recent, 2014, first) were 2.7%, 3.2%, 5.5%(!), 3.7%. O.K., I'm not going to 'make a million' and pay off the mortgage in the next five years, but it pays for an enjoyable life, nice holidays and lots of treats for the family.
But best of all, I enjoy going to work - and I enjoy going home again when the only thing to 'worry' about is what time* I need to set the alarm for.
*Frickin' early sometimes, it has to be said, but getting home before 09:00 on those days is a bonus.
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 27th Sep 2014 at 01:25.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 924
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Intimidated by the worry, the doubt of leaving?
Please, don't be. Trust me when I say it, but civvy street is easy after the RN, and will be after the RAF and Army to.
People are nicer, gentler and speak to you more informally and in a fairer, easier manner. The money is far, far better in like for like roles. Me- even me, increased his pay by (hang on as I do the arithmetic) something like 63.3% per annum (but I work literally half the hours I once did, and for like-minded decent people). And when I added on my pension....smiley thing logo here please.
I would say again, if you have any doubts about what you are now doing, and find the pay and future outlook unreasonable, well take courage, take the initiative and leave the uniform behind you.
* In a way (because you cant look back in anger, there lies madness and bitterness) I wish I had not extended my service as I did, when offered - this was a mistake on my part, I now feel. I'm a far happier, better all round person now as a civvy, probably because of the reasons I stated above.
People are nicer, gentler and speak to you more informally and in a fairer, easier manner. The money is far, far better in like for like roles. Me- even me, increased his pay by (hang on as I do the arithmetic) something like 63.3% per annum (but I work literally half the hours I once did, and for like-minded decent people). And when I added on my pension....smiley thing logo here please.
I would say again, if you have any doubts about what you are now doing, and find the pay and future outlook unreasonable, well take courage, take the initiative and leave the uniform behind you.
* In a way (because you cant look back in anger, there lies madness and bitterness) I wish I had not extended my service as I did, when offered - this was a mistake on my part, I now feel. I'm a far happier, better all round person now as a civvy, probably because of the reasons I stated above.
I think that it is important to feel valued in whatever job you're doing and pay is an element of that reward. I joined the Services with my eyes wide open about the financial remuneration...and could even make an educated guess about what I could have earned had I pursued a career in civvy street. The truth is that you are very well paid in the first few years of service and slowly fall behind your peers after that. Nevertheless you don't have to work to hard for your money (don't confuse spending time at work with actual mental or physical effort). I used my time in the Services to secure my financial future using the resources available to me (cheap accommodation, early finishes on bad weather days, relatively high pay in my early twenties). By my early forties I didn't ever need to work again.
You guys are clever people, what I did wasn't rocket science and there are many more opportunities than there were twenty odd years ago - don't worry about the extra few quid a week you will or won't get from HMG from 1 April next year, go and make it for yourselves! I loved the experiences I had in the military, many of which I couldn't have got elsewhere (!). Everybody wants to be paid more, servicemen love to have a whinge. Moan by all means but don't get bitter, enjoy your time in the mob and remember that your financial future is in your hands!
You guys are clever people, what I did wasn't rocket science and there are many more opportunities than there were twenty odd years ago - don't worry about the extra few quid a week you will or won't get from HMG from 1 April next year, go and make it for yourselves! I loved the experiences I had in the military, many of which I couldn't have got elsewhere (!). Everybody wants to be paid more, servicemen love to have a whinge. Moan by all means but don't get bitter, enjoy your time in the mob and remember that your financial future is in your hands!
From the BBC website discussing the Chancellor's announcement today that a proposed benefit's freeze would save £3bn:
Given that these £3bn in savings are due to come in in 2016 if the Tories win the next election, can we infer that we should expect an extended period of pay restraint - 1% max p/a, and then possibly targeted - for the foreseeable future?
If so, what will the cumulative effect on pay be since austerity started? On second thoughts, don't tell me, I'll probably only cry.
The £3bn saving is part of £12bn in welfare reductions previously floated by the chancellor. He also said there would be £13bn of Whitehall savings, which will include public sector pay restraint.
If so, what will the cumulative effect on pay be since austerity started? On second thoughts, don't tell me, I'll probably only cry.
Melch, it's in the report (as in the AFPRB one)! They had a table either this year or last showing overall how much worse off you could be compared to 2009/10 depending on rank. I'll see if I can find it...
Found it, it was in the 2013 report. It compared rates of pay in 2010-11 with those for 2012-13, and assessed the effect of the (then) 2-year pay freeze after factoring things by RPI or CPI. Worked out thus:
RPI:
Private Lvl 4 +4.6%
Sgt Lvl 2 +0.5%
WO2 Lvl 9 -8.9%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -7.9%
CPI:
Private Lvl 4 +5.8%
Sgt Lvl 2 +1.7%
WO2 Lvl 9 -7.8%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -6.8%
So with a lot of users of this board being aircrew who's take home pay would fall between level 9 WO and level 5 Lt Col, you can assume you're worse off to the tune of around 4% per year abated by any rises. So 2 years with no rises then 2 years of 1% mean we're what, maybe 10% worse off overall?
Found it, it was in the 2013 report. It compared rates of pay in 2010-11 with those for 2012-13, and assessed the effect of the (then) 2-year pay freeze after factoring things by RPI or CPI. Worked out thus:
RPI:
Private Lvl 4 +4.6%
Sgt Lvl 2 +0.5%
WO2 Lvl 9 -8.9%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -7.9%
CPI:
Private Lvl 4 +5.8%
Sgt Lvl 2 +1.7%
WO2 Lvl 9 -7.8%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -6.8%
So with a lot of users of this board being aircrew who's take home pay would fall between level 9 WO and level 5 Lt Col, you can assume you're worse off to the tune of around 4% per year abated by any rises. So 2 years with no rises then 2 years of 1% mean we're what, maybe 10% worse off overall?
Given that the government was spending 20% more than it was raising in tax....and therefore borrowing 20% of its expenditure.....like your pay for example, something had to give. It still borrows about £5bn a month to fund its spending or £150 per tax payer. I think you can assume that there's more 'pain' to come. Be thankful you don't live in Greece, where your pay would have fallen by a third in relative terms over the last 5 years.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Whyte House
Age: 95
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RPI
Private Lvl 4 +4.6%
Sgt Lvl 2 +0.5%
WO2 Lvl 9 -8.9%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -7.9%
CPI:
Private Lvl 4 +5.8%
Sgt Lvl 2 +1.7%
WO2 Lvl 9 -7.8%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -6.8%
Private Lvl 4 +4.6%
Sgt Lvl 2 +0.5%
WO2 Lvl 9 -8.9%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -7.9%
CPI:
Private Lvl 4 +5.8%
Sgt Lvl 2 +1.7%
WO2 Lvl 9 -7.8%
Lt Col Lvl 5 -6.8%
I'll dig out my pay statements from '10 to '12 and do the calcs for PA lvl 23/4/5, unless anyone beats me to it.
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 29th Sep 2014 at 19:14.
I missed it in '14, thanks.
It says it's the effect of 2 years of pay freeze and one of pay restraint. Compares 2013-14 to 2010-11. Involves promotion to make it sensible.
RPI:
Private L2 (2010) L5 (2014): +9.5%
Cpl L3 (2010) Sgt L3 (2014): +2.5%
WO2 L9 (2010) WO2 L9 (2014): -9.2%
Lt Col L3 (2010) Lt Col L6 (2014): -4.4%
CPI:
Private L2 (2010) L5 (2014): +11.4%
Cpl L3 (2010) Sgt L3 (2014): +4.3%
WO2 L9 (2010) WO2 L9 (2014): -7.6%
Lt Col L3 (2010) Lt Col L6 (2014): -2.7%
I guess if you're marking time as Flt Lt you're probably not far off the WO2 stuck at his top level. The private increase looks ok until you realise it's 11.4% split over 4 years, so still sub-3% a year.
It says it's the effect of 2 years of pay freeze and one of pay restraint. Compares 2013-14 to 2010-11. Involves promotion to make it sensible.
RPI:
Private L2 (2010) L5 (2014): +9.5%
Cpl L3 (2010) Sgt L3 (2014): +2.5%
WO2 L9 (2010) WO2 L9 (2014): -9.2%
Lt Col L3 (2010) Lt Col L6 (2014): -4.4%
CPI:
Private L2 (2010) L5 (2014): +11.4%
Cpl L3 (2010) Sgt L3 (2014): +4.3%
WO2 L9 (2010) WO2 L9 (2014): -7.6%
Lt Col L3 (2010) Lt Col L6 (2014): -2.7%
I guess if you're marking time as Flt Lt you're probably not far off the WO2 stuck at his top level. The private increase looks ok until you realise it's 11.4% split over 4 years, so still sub-3% a year.
Don't forget many aircrew officers will also be caught out by the loss of 'Family Allowance'. A recent member of my team - Flt Lt PAS at top end of the pay scale, with 3 kids under 16 lost iro £2k per year. 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: lincs
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm actually in that 40% taxpayer, 3 child position and the actual loss is more like 3 grand of gross earnings as the "family allowance" was paid net of tax.
And while I'm wound up, the statement about the government borrowing more than it receives in tax is not helped when they made great swaths of taxpayers redundant. Public servants are part of that rare breed that actually pay the right amount of tax. People with businesses and I include (especially) self employed consultants, offset much or their earnings against costs (ie those normal things that most of us take on the chin after tax).
And guess where lots of work went after we laid off some of our best talent - yes the same people set up as consultants or private companies doing the job for more money and paying back less in tax. - Rant off
And while I'm wound up, the statement about the government borrowing more than it receives in tax is not helped when they made great swaths of taxpayers redundant. Public servants are part of that rare breed that actually pay the right amount of tax. People with businesses and I include (especially) self employed consultants, offset much or their earnings against costs (ie those normal things that most of us take on the chin after tax).
And guess where lots of work went after we laid off some of our best talent - yes the same people set up as consultants or private companies doing the job for more money and paying back less in tax. - Rant off
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"(especially) self employed consultants"
have no guaranteed work, no guaranteed pension, no paid health plan, no paid holidays.............. they pay for it all themselves
some you win, some you lose
have no guaranteed work, no guaranteed pension, no paid health plan, no paid holidays.............. they pay for it all themselves
some you win, some you lose
"Public servants" don't create any wealth for the country.
They are paid for by the government, by the tax taken from wealth generators. The amount of tax they pay is actually irrelevant, since the government pays them for them with one hand, and gets back some money in taxes with the another - but they represent a drain, albeit in most cases a necessary one, on the public purse.
They are paid for by the government, by the tax taken from wealth generators. The amount of tax they pay is actually irrelevant, since the government pays them for them with one hand, and gets back some money in taxes with the another - but they represent a drain, albeit in most cases a necessary one, on the public purse.
hey Party - don't feel too sorry for your mate - if he is Flt Lt PAS and near the top (level 35? - think there is a bar for Flt Lt under the latest system? ) - he is on near enough £80k. Not too shabby. I speak as someone who was also pulling in the PAS moolah until redundancy - not much chance of replicating that wage in civvy street in my locale. However, happy enough on what I get (plus pension) and being able to stay where I want to live. Swings and roondaboots (as the locals say 
)
)
Last edited by Sandy Parts; 7th Oct 2014 at 08:31. Reason: spilling
Sandy - I agree that 80k isn't too shabby but the relative point is:
2011 - 0% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)
2012 - 0% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)
2013 - 1% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)
2014 - 1% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)
in addition to a loss of £1-3k per annum from Child Benefit allowance.
Therefore, I suspect the majority of public sector employees feel significantly worse off than compared to 5 years ago, regardless of the fact that gross pay has gone up a little bit over that same period.
That's not me being political by the way - just stating the facts.
2011 - 0% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)
2012 - 0% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)
2013 - 1% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)
2014 - 1% pay rise versus inflation rise of 4% (RPI/CPI)
in addition to a loss of £1-3k per annum from Child Benefit allowance.
Therefore, I suspect the majority of public sector employees feel significantly worse off than compared to 5 years ago, regardless of the fact that gross pay has gone up a little bit over that same period.
That's not me being political by the way - just stating the facts.
Well said Biggus!
Some public sector employees seem to think that their income should only ever go up. My income will fall by 20% this year compared with last. That's life....and just means that my contribution to the public purse will be that much smaller. I value the public sector employees' contribution and want to see them adequately rewarded, perhaps it's time to end their defined benefits pension schemes; it would put them on a par with the private sector, there might even be some spare cash to offer increased salaries.
MSOCS, you could then decide how much value you put on your pension!
Some public sector employees seem to think that their income should only ever go up. My income will fall by 20% this year compared with last. That's life....and just means that my contribution to the public purse will be that much smaller. I value the public sector employees' contribution and want to see them adequately rewarded, perhaps it's time to end their defined benefits pension schemes; it would put them on a par with the private sector, there might even be some spare cash to offer increased salaries.
MSOCS, you could then decide how much value you put on your pension!