15th September 1940
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Quoting Hipper ; Did the Enigma decodes have an input in the Battle of Britain?
I was told, much later, by an RAF ground wireless intercept operator, that they listened to various frequencies used by the Luftwaffe in France. The aircraft there, prior to a mission, tuned and checked their radios which, while brief activity, could give indications of the numbers of aircraft involved, and by the use of D/F, the airfields where the activity was taking place. It may not have been much use in the context of Enigma, but it was useful in giving warning of the numbers of aircraft which could be expected, and given good intelligence, the units involved.
I was told, much later, by an RAF ground wireless intercept operator, that they listened to various frequencies used by the Luftwaffe in France. The aircraft there, prior to a mission, tuned and checked their radios which, while brief activity, could give indications of the numbers of aircraft involved, and by the use of D/F, the airfields where the activity was taking place. It may not have been much use in the context of Enigma, but it was useful in giving warning of the numbers of aircraft which could be expected, and given good intelligence, the units involved.
Last edited by ValMORNA; 17th Sep 2014 at 20:17.
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In this context, Enigma was less useful to us than the basic fact that the Germans just weren't very good at keeping secrets! Even the name Knickebein was a giveaway since it was the name of a magic raven in a German folk tale which always knew its way home. When the torn-up notebook of a shot-down Luftwaffe nav was discovered, it had the word Knickebein and a series of numbers. A well-read investigator made the connection, prompting a closer look at the aircraft's Lorenz receiver and revealing to us the workings of their then top-secret night bombing system.
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A German invasion attempt in mid-September 1940 would have been (for the Germans) a bloodbath. They would have been slaughtered.
As one of their more capable leaders, Erhard Milch, noted. The only time it could have realistically been carried-off was in JUNE 1940, in the immediate aftermath of Dunkirk. What Churchill himself called "That very dangerous hour."
Using paratroops, seizing airheads (Hawkinge, Lympne??) then advancing on Dover/Felixtowe to secure ports then battling across what supplies they could by sea. They might, just might, have pulled it off. As the sass would say "Who Dares Wins."
It sounds fanciful. But remember at THAT moment in history, due mainly to the appeasement and idiocy of the pre-war years, and despite Winston's best efforts towards realism, AND after Dunkirk, we simply didn't have the means to fight a prolonged battle. The cupboard was bare. (Sound familiar, eh Mr Cameron?)
Of course Hitler was too busy humiliating the French at Compiegne and sightseeing around Paris...the moment passed.
As one of their more capable leaders, Erhard Milch, noted. The only time it could have realistically been carried-off was in JUNE 1940, in the immediate aftermath of Dunkirk. What Churchill himself called "That very dangerous hour."
Using paratroops, seizing airheads (Hawkinge, Lympne??) then advancing on Dover/Felixtowe to secure ports then battling across what supplies they could by sea. They might, just might, have pulled it off. As the sass would say "Who Dares Wins."
It sounds fanciful. But remember at THAT moment in history, due mainly to the appeasement and idiocy of the pre-war years, and despite Winston's best efforts towards realism, AND after Dunkirk, we simply didn't have the means to fight a prolonged battle. The cupboard was bare. (Sound familiar, eh Mr Cameron?)
Of course Hitler was too busy humiliating the French at Compiegne and sightseeing around Paris...the moment passed.
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My quick nip in on this one is that both Dowding and Park were aware, depending on the size of the force, knew a very great degree of actuality as the Luftwaffe took to the skies. In the book by F W Winterbotham, The Ultra Secret, he was the first to know what was happening in the Pa de Calais and other areas and then had a duty to immediately inform Churchill and then - to Dowding and then Park. It is true to say that Enigma, or Ultra, as Churchill called it, turned out to be factually vital.
The real danger to the UK in 1940 was not of a German invasion from without, but of the peace makers from within. If Fighter Command had lost the Battle of Britain and the Luftwaffe had been allowed to go about its business in our skies by day as well as by night then that would have been the moment for them to show their hands. As it was they remained in the shadows until that last chance saloon in May 1941 at Dungavel House, home of the 14th Duke of Hamilton, Air Commodore Douglas Douglas-Hamilton, who was on duty that night at RAF Turnhouse with responsibility for Scotland's air defence. The lights went on at the Dungavel Airstrip but then 15 minutes later went out again. The party slunk back into the shadows, and Churchill was able to enjoy watching a screening of the Marx Brothers at Downing Street...
Shot One:
The well read investigator was Dr R V Jones of Air ministry scientific intelligence who with Squadron Leader Denys Felkin an RAF intelligence officer and interrogator of Luftwaffe PoWs, including a little serupticious 'bugging' found out about Knickebein (Crooked Leg) and this was a development of the Lorentz system, which the RAF also had from pre war. X and Y Garet wree developed during this time as more sophisticated blind bombing systems. Oboe or Gee in Bomber Command worked much the same way
Stendec5:
Churchill was it would appear ready in the event of invasion to release chemical weapons to the RAF using Mustard gas. If dropped on the invading fleet even at sea would have caused mass causalities. look up the Bari Incident in Italy in 1943/4 for its devastating effectiveness even when spread on the sea.
Brewster Buffalo:
Fighter version of the Blenheim, I think two squadrons 23 and 25 belonging to fighter command had converted to the home defence night fighter operations along with the Boulton PaulDefiant, without AI Radar, only later in 1940 early 41 did the Beaufighter become operational. Only when the Mosquito night fighter come into service did Fighter Command take to operating over German airfields, during the night bomber offensive.
The well read investigator was Dr R V Jones of Air ministry scientific intelligence who with Squadron Leader Denys Felkin an RAF intelligence officer and interrogator of Luftwaffe PoWs, including a little serupticious 'bugging' found out about Knickebein (Crooked Leg) and this was a development of the Lorentz system, which the RAF also had from pre war. X and Y Garet wree developed during this time as more sophisticated blind bombing systems. Oboe or Gee in Bomber Command worked much the same way
Stendec5:
Churchill was it would appear ready in the event of invasion to release chemical weapons to the RAF using Mustard gas. If dropped on the invading fleet even at sea would have caused mass causalities. look up the Bari Incident in Italy in 1943/4 for its devastating effectiveness even when spread on the sea.
Brewster Buffalo:
Fighter version of the Blenheim, I think two squadrons 23 and 25 belonging to fighter command had converted to the home defence night fighter operations along with the Boulton PaulDefiant, without AI Radar, only later in 1940 early 41 did the Beaufighter become operational. Only when the Mosquito night fighter come into service did Fighter Command take to operating over German airfields, during the night bomber offensive.
Last edited by air pig; 15th Sep 2014 at 23:16.
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Considering the way that Stalin & the NKVD were treating the average Russian, if Hitler had gone into Russia in the manner of a 'liberator of the people' and done a decent hearts and minds job on the locals instead of shipping them to the nearest camp while going flat out for Moscow and taking Stalin out and then taking the Oil Fields. I think it's quite likely he could have taken Russia, key being giving the locals a better option than Stalin.
AAS:
Fortunately in this respect the German security forces ideologically were not much different from Stalin and his NKVD, referring to them as untermensch, so a hearts and minds campaign was not an option. Liquidation of communists, intelligentsia and those of the Jewish faith was the order of the day by Einsatzkommando's, who were in some places assisted by the local population. This is though getting away from the original start of the thread.
Glass of good red raised at the end of the Battle of Britain film, in memory of those who died in defence of the UK, also a thought to those of the Luftwaffe who also fell during the battle.
Fortunately in this respect the German security forces ideologically were not much different from Stalin and his NKVD, referring to them as untermensch, so a hearts and minds campaign was not an option. Liquidation of communists, intelligentsia and those of the Jewish faith was the order of the day by Einsatzkommando's, who were in some places assisted by the local population. This is though getting away from the original start of the thread.
Glass of good red raised at the end of the Battle of Britain film, in memory of those who died in defence of the UK, also a thought to those of the Luftwaffe who also fell during the battle.
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According to reports at the time, when Stalin's NKVD goons met those of Hitlers Gestapo at Brest Litovsk shortly after their respective bosses signed their non-aggression pact, they all got on famously.
ShotOne;
Fascism and communism are bothers in arms, look at a European political institution, they work on a horseshoe shaped parliament, so both ends almost touch, were as in the UK we have an adversarial rather than a consensus Parliament. Both sides face each other, behind the red line on the floor (two sword lengths apart). Hitler's army had trained for many years before WW2 in Russia developing panzer and aerial warfare far away from western eyes, and only after the division of Poland in 1939/40 and the treaty signed between Molotov and von Ribbintrop, did both sides start to distrust each other. Only Stalin's decapitation of the Soviet General Staff allowed Hitler's early victories.
Fascism and communism are bothers in arms, look at a European political institution, they work on a horseshoe shaped parliament, so both ends almost touch, were as in the UK we have an adversarial rather than a consensus Parliament. Both sides face each other, behind the red line on the floor (two sword lengths apart). Hitler's army had trained for many years before WW2 in Russia developing panzer and aerial warfare far away from western eyes, and only after the division of Poland in 1939/40 and the treaty signed between Molotov and von Ribbintrop, did both sides start to distrust each other. Only Stalin's decapitation of the Soviet General Staff allowed Hitler's early victories.
IMHO the important victory from the BoB were the political ones. The USA realised they had to support Britain as it now obvious it had the capability to inflict a defeat on the Germans and Britain was not going to surrender. It entrenched the leadership of Churchill who had the fighting spirit the Americans admired. Finally it silenced for the duration of the war any further attempts at appeasement or accommodation of Hitler's demands.
""They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them." Lest We Forget
""They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them." Lest We Forget
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One not only raised a glass to memories of the RAF participants (Commanders, Pilots and Ground and Support Crew), but also played the video of BoB. As I bought the DVD here I can choose English, which my neigbours do not understand, or German, which they do, as the language. I chose German this year - it annoys the hell out of the neighbours when I do that.
Just as an aside, my maternal grandmother , her sister and my grandmothers 3 year old daughter ( my aunt) were in the garden during the Battle, waving at a British Fighter, except it wasn't British. The 109 (as it turned out) swooped down and fired at them!
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From my Home Town!!!
Thornaby doesn't have a lot going for it, but they can still get some things right 
Thornaby Battle Of Britain Remembrance Service, 2014 | Picture Stockton Archive
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
Thornaby Battle Of Britain Remembrance Service, 2014 | Picture Stockton Archive
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
Air Pig:-
Finally got it on the third pass. Had me going a bit though!
Brewster Buffalo:
Fighter version of the Blenheim,
Fighter version of the Blenheim,
Chugs:
Can't forget the Gloster Gladiator's based at St Eval and the Defiant's at Kirton in Lindsay. Ok Blenheim fighter version was pushing it a bit.
Can't forget the Gloster Gladiator's based at St Eval and the Defiant's at Kirton in Lindsay. Ok Blenheim fighter version was pushing it a bit.
Air pig
RAF Night Intruder operations started in April 1942 with Bostons / Havoc / Hurricane IIC (with drop tanks). Mossie ops started in the second half of 43, plus Beaufighter equipped with Serrate / AI Mk IV from mid 43 onwards, to be replaced with early Mosquito marks with AI Mk IV at the end of that year. The later marks of AI radar equipped Mossies didn't operate over enemy territory until after D-Day.
RAF Night Intruder operations started in April 1942 with Bostons / Havoc / Hurricane IIC (with drop tanks). Mossie ops started in the second half of 43, plus Beaufighter equipped with Serrate / AI Mk IV from mid 43 onwards, to be replaced with early Mosquito marks with AI Mk IV at the end of that year. The later marks of AI radar equipped Mossies didn't operate over enemy territory until after D-Day.
MAINJAFAD:
I'm surprised the ops did not start earlier in particular as Fighter Command daylight operations started in 1941 over France. I'd forgotten about the Beaufighter ops using Serrate was it not Bob Braham one of the main operators in this area, did not know about the other units. Single seat night ops, very dangerous ops flown by very brave men. Boston/Havoc ops then looked to have started following the USA's entry to the war when the aircraft were sent over under lease lend.
Air pig
RAF Night Intruder operations started in April 1942 with Bostons / Havoc / Hurricane IIC (with drop tanks). Mossie ops started in the second half of 43, plus Beaufighter equipped with Serrate / AI Mk IV from mid 43 onwards, to be replaced with early Mosquito marks with AI Mk IV at the end of that year. The later marks of AI radar equipped Mossies didn't operate over enemy territory until after D-Day.
RAF Night Intruder operations started in April 1942 with Bostons / Havoc / Hurricane IIC (with drop tanks). Mossie ops started in the second half of 43, plus Beaufighter equipped with Serrate / AI Mk IV from mid 43 onwards, to be replaced with early Mosquito marks with AI Mk IV at the end of that year. The later marks of AI radar equipped Mossies didn't operate over enemy territory until after D-Day.