Yet another RN led evacuation without RAF air cover.
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Ok, I will trust you when you say it was factored in. I'm just interested. I/we have gone from an age when we carried our own onboard fixed and rotary assets, and much more from the RAF - to what we have now, which I guess would be UK land based Fighter Bombers from somewhere in the UK. Not Yorkshire apparently.
Things like this may be more and more the future operations for the UK military - who are supposed be to be lighter, more responsive more hard hitting etc etc, to read the blurb.
But one wonders about it all, which is why I posted the slightly provocative slightly tongue in cheek starter.
The public wont have it if and when it goes wromg, however.
Things like this may be more and more the future operations for the UK military - who are supposed be to be lighter, more responsive more hard hitting etc etc, to read the blurb.
But one wonders about it all, which is why I posted the slightly provocative slightly tongue in cheek starter.
The public wont have it if and when it goes wromg, however.
HS, for non combatant evacuation operations, there are a variety of bases in the Med that a NATO nation or group can operate from.
If a NEO was what was in progress, UK isn't left all alone in that region. There are deals premade and contingency plans on the shelf, at need.
If a NEO was what was in progress, UK isn't left all alone in that region. There are deals premade and contingency plans on the shelf, at need.
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WRONG AGAIN!!!
The public don't give a ****. If the internet went off, THEN they would care. If taxes went up to pay for the forces, they would care about that too!!
The public don't give a ****. If the internet went off, THEN they would care. If taxes went up to pay for the forces, they would care about that too!!
But worrying. Wasn't even a top story on the TV news, which amazes me when I think about it. So to recap;
1. A small, practically unarmed RN ship (normally used for surveying duty), has to be diverted to Libya to evacuate UK persons trapped by fighting. (Which it does).
2. Was it backed up by other, harder UK weaponry?
3. Was UK air power available?
4. What if things had gone badly wrong?
1. A small, practically unarmed RN ship (normally used for surveying duty), has to be diverted to Libya to evacuate UK persons trapped by fighting. (Which it does).
2. Was it backed up by other, harder UK weaponry?
3. Was UK air power available?
4. What if things had gone badly wrong?
When the MOD reacts to tabloid pressure with their heroic PR-releases blazing that "brave troops are facing bullets to risk stranded British ex-patriots etc etc blah blah" this distorts the commercial reality of commercial competition in politically risky markets.
Responsible companies put in place stringent evacuation procedures for their personnel - and then execute them at considerable cost when necessary. They are then commercially penalised by the MOD that comes in and bravely "rescues" personnel from useless irresponsible outfits that should not be even operating in the region because they do not put in place evacuation procedures and rely on the FCO and MOD to get them out of trouble.
A further consequence is that the RAF ends up taking away work from commercial operators who want the evacuation work.
So, in summary, your insinuation that the RN should not be going in to Libya without RAF top-cover is pretty hilarious really. The RN should not be sending in the ship in the first place - it is just an MOD publicity stunt.
For the moment, all evacuations should be at the cost of the employer and their insurers, and should be paid to the AOC holders who are still prepared to operate into the region. That should only change when no AOC operators are prepared to go - which is not the case at the moment.
Last edited by Trim Stab; 4th Aug 2014 at 22:21.
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I seem to be in the minority here, but I'll play Devil's Advocate and side with the OP. Things in Libya have deteriorated to the point where the Embassy is suspending operations, clearly a sign for British nationals to GTFO. The Navy vessel sent to assist with this operation was, as the OP pointed out, barely armed (20mm, miniguns and GPMG according to t'interwebs). While it seems the crew of HMS Enterprise did a splendid job of getting British nationals and a few others out of Libya to Malta, I feel like the original question is valid: What if things had gone badly?
One reply asked the OP to 'please keep up' and posted a link to an article about the Tornado missions striking Libyan targets in 2011. Well that seems unfair. As a civilian I can only guess, but I bet my guess is good when I assume that those missions were planned well in advance with a lot of support. Quite different to the situation if Enterprise had run into hostile chappies with ill intent. Sure there are agreements in place within NATO to use bases for NEOs, but what if thing went down hill quickly, as they did for the US in Benghazi? A tooled up GR4 sitting at Marham does sweet FA for the people under fire on the way to the harbour, I'm sure.
Again, no disrespect to anyone, and thankfully things went off without a hitch, no matter why the British nationals were there and regardless of whether their employers should have evaced them earlier. But I bet everyone wold have felt better if the UK still had enough resources to have pointy things that make other things go bang a bit closer than East Anglia.
One reply asked the OP to 'please keep up' and posted a link to an article about the Tornado missions striking Libyan targets in 2011. Well that seems unfair. As a civilian I can only guess, but I bet my guess is good when I assume that those missions were planned well in advance with a lot of support. Quite different to the situation if Enterprise had run into hostile chappies with ill intent. Sure there are agreements in place within NATO to use bases for NEOs, but what if thing went down hill quickly, as they did for the US in Benghazi? A tooled up GR4 sitting at Marham does sweet FA for the people under fire on the way to the harbour, I'm sure.
Again, no disrespect to anyone, and thankfully things went off without a hitch, no matter why the British nationals were there and regardless of whether their employers should have evaced them earlier. But I bet everyone wold have felt better if the UK still had enough resources to have pointy things that make other things go bang a bit closer than East Anglia.
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Trim Stab
Re your post #24, you say the MOD taking away from commercial.
How come the RAF had to go in in Hercs and pull out the people a few years back, copping a bullet through the wind screen in the process (not sure if any other bullets hit the aircraft).
Re your post #24, you say the MOD taking away from commercial.
How come the RAF had to go in in Hercs and pull out the people a few years back, copping a bullet through the wind screen in the process (not sure if any other bullets hit the aircraft).
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The question you have to ask is: Did they need air cover?
I suspect at the moment the answer is no, it is purely a ground threat; is any armour involved? I'd say probably not. The main threat is Small arms and potentially some vehicle mounted heavy weapons. Do you need a 4.5" gun to deal with that? No. Do you need Harpoon missiles to deal with that? Again no. The other question is collateral damage, what exactly is a Tornado/Typhoon going to do when faced with lots of people with AK47s storming the dockside? I don't think they're going to drop a bomb on it. All RN Vessels practice NEO during their workups and they have lots of tactics to defeat the bad guys, the safest of which is to just untie the ship and move away from the dock edge. In that scenario it would be easier to put a slightly smaller yet more manoeuvrable vessel that can easily navigate potentially dangerous waterways.
In any event, GPMGs, Miniguns and a 20mm would be able to keep he dockside well under control until all essential passengers were onboard, the shore party would be able to give plenty of notice of any incoming threats from ground personnel. The only thing air cover would provide would be eyes in the sky and it would be quite difficult working out the difference between bad and good.
I suspect at the moment the answer is no, it is purely a ground threat; is any armour involved? I'd say probably not. The main threat is Small arms and potentially some vehicle mounted heavy weapons. Do you need a 4.5" gun to deal with that? No. Do you need Harpoon missiles to deal with that? Again no. The other question is collateral damage, what exactly is a Tornado/Typhoon going to do when faced with lots of people with AK47s storming the dockside? I don't think they're going to drop a bomb on it. All RN Vessels practice NEO during their workups and they have lots of tactics to defeat the bad guys, the safest of which is to just untie the ship and move away from the dock edge. In that scenario it would be easier to put a slightly smaller yet more manoeuvrable vessel that can easily navigate potentially dangerous waterways.
In any event, GPMGs, Miniguns and a 20mm would be able to keep he dockside well under control until all essential passengers were onboard, the shore party would be able to give plenty of notice of any incoming threats from ground personnel. The only thing air cover would provide would be eyes in the sky and it would be quite difficult working out the difference between bad and good.
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I heard it was the ENTERPRISE! Doesn't that bring its own air cover with it!
ENTERPRISE!
Sorry that's a proper ship and the wrong Navy!
Or is it the wrong ship and a proper Navy!
I'll get my coat!
Aaaaarrrrfffff!
Bloggs!
ENTERPRISE!
Sorry that's a proper ship and the wrong Navy!
Or is it the wrong ship and a proper Navy!
I'll get my coat!
Aaaaarrrrfffff!
Bloggs!
Whatever gets the job done. 
Generally these things get planned in a way that means if certain things happen, other things can happen in response. There was no need for a carrier or RAF air cover for a routine evacuation (I'm curious as to why the OP feels it was needed for a ship, but has never been needed for many of the RAF led NEO in recent years?).
I know its easy to slip into fantasian dreams that somehow had HMS ILLUSTRIOUS had her flying circus onboard then somehow all would be well as the mighty GR9 would have kept the enemy at bay, but what if she'd been alongside, or in the Pacific or doing something else?
ENTERPRISE went probably because she happened to be the closest ship in the region at the time. Many different ships have done NEOs over the years - its not something you can only do if you have steely weapons and a rakish bow you know.
Why the bloody hell does this pathethic desire to slag off the Crabs come about at every opportunity by some Naval supporters? I've spent my entire adult life wearing Dark Blue and I am ashamed at the nasty cheap point scoring on display from the OP here - he does the RN an enormous disservice. You don't speak for the RN and I am glad others here can see that.
I know its easy to slip into fantasian dreams that somehow had HMS ILLUSTRIOUS had her flying circus onboard then somehow all would be well as the mighty GR9 would have kept the enemy at bay, but what if she'd been alongside, or in the Pacific or doing something else?
ENTERPRISE went probably because she happened to be the closest ship in the region at the time. Many different ships have done NEOs over the years - its not something you can only do if you have steely weapons and a rakish bow you know.
Why the bloody hell does this pathethic desire to slag off the Crabs come about at every opportunity by some Naval supporters? I've spent my entire adult life wearing Dark Blue and I am ashamed at the nasty cheap point scoring on display from the OP here - he does the RN an enormous disservice. You don't speak for the RN and I am glad others here can see that.
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Simple..
Navy have ships and boats. They do this real good.
RAF have 'planes and choppers [allegedly] they do this real good as well
Army has guns and blow **** up. They try and deny they enjoy this but.......
Originally Posted by Jimlad1
Why the bloody hell does this pathethic desire to slag off the Crabs come about at every opportunity by some Naval supporters? I've spent my entire adult life wearing Dark Blue and I am ashamed at the nasty cheap point scoring on display from the OP here - he does the RN an enormous disservice. You don't speak for the RN and I am glad others here can see that.
Respect.
