Red Arrows: Inside the Bubble
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Or Black, but that's no longer a PC colour, so Yellow it is 
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Loved it!
I served as a Nav on Shacks & Nimrods for 27 happy years & I thoroughly enjoyed the programme which reminded me yet again of my pride in the RAF.
I watched in awe the skill displayed by the pilots & it also brought back so many happy memories of the camaraderie we shared with our own ground crew.
Bloody good progamme, very many thanks to the Reds, Blues & the BBC.
I watched in awe the skill displayed by the pilots & it also brought back so many happy memories of the camaraderie we shared with our own ground crew.
Bloody good progamme, very many thanks to the Reds, Blues & the BBC.
An excellent programme within the constraints of providing a factional documentary which would appeal to core BBC2 audiences, although perhaps less to spotters, uniform-watchers, flying clothing police....or people who name themselves after ancient jet bombers....
The 'toe-curling'
description of the roll-back was about as simple as could be explained to the core audience. There's nothing special in pulling +3~+4g in a high G barrel roll, but there definitely is so when it's being flown at low level in close vicinity to others in the formation in synch with another mate. The barrel roll has killed many unskilled pilots and the fact that the Team can fly such manoeuvres skilfully and consistently speaks volumes.
I'm not a fan of the new tail markings and to be honest the Gnat was much prettier - but in their 50th season, RAFAT showed themselves to be true professionals in last night's programme.
The 'toe-curling'
description of the roll-back was about as simple as could be explained to the core audience. There's nothing special in pulling +3~+4g in a high G barrel roll, but there definitely is so when it's being flown at low level in close vicinity to others in the formation in synch with another mate. The barrel roll has killed many unskilled pilots and the fact that the Team can fly such manoeuvres skilfully and consistently speaks volumes.I'm not a fan of the new tail markings and to be honest the Gnat was much prettier - but in their 50th season, RAFAT showed themselves to be true professionals in last night's programme.
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Would I be right in guessing there's a certain pejorative use of the term "spotter" by some Pprune users? Although I've never indulged in plane spotting I do know from first-hand experience that many serving personnel often know a whole lot less than "spotters" do. Let's not fall into the trap of believing that service experience always necessarily bestows knowledge or wisdom
As for the description of the roll back manoeuvre, I think that was the problem - it was too simple. It told the viewer absolutely nothing.
As for the description of the roll back manoeuvre, I think that was the problem - it was too simple. It told the viewer absolutely nothing.
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Enjoyed the show, but one question....
They get given (and well deserved) their nice new shiny red / blue suits...and then proceed to throw each other in the sea. Does all the sea water have an adverse effect on the material?
Can they simply be washed?
They get given (and well deserved) their nice new shiny red / blue suits...and then proceed to throw each other in the sea. Does all the sea water have an adverse effect on the material?
Can they simply be washed?
As an ex RAF Engineer I can categorically state that the Engineers do indeed wash, not 100% sure about the pilots though, one has smelt some really wiffy ones in my time.
.
Last edited by NutLoose; 29th Jul 2014 at 23:18.
Gentleman Aviator
As an ex RAF Engineer I can categorically state that the Engineers do indeed wash, not 100% sure about the pilots though, one has smelt so really wiffy ones in my time.
Excellent NutlooseThat's just the sort of banter we should have in this virtual crewroom, rather than the exercise of shoulder chips and (WTF!) bringing in the North British SweatFest.
As an old-ish and cynical-ish aviator who has worked with the Reds on occasion (Red 10's rotary taxi!) in both Gnat and Hawk times, I thought it was a very good effort. More importantly (much more in the context of the BBC), Milady Teeters was enthralled, when she is normally bored witless by anything to do with flying ......
[which probably dates from a LGN early in our relationship, when the conversation from the guy next to her was exclusively on spinning the Hunter!]Good to see one of my studes has done good too ..........
Just watched it online - very good.
You're all being a bit harsh about that roll thing - you really wouldn't want to balls that up.
And having had all of 10 minutes stick time on the Hawk myself, I can vouch for it being a twitchy little beast.
Amused me to note yet again how fast jet pilots all speak very quickly when they're relaying a huge list of absolutely essential life or death instructions.
Like LAX air traffic controllers.
Wouldn't this be the one time in life you'd want to speak VERY SLOWLY AND CLEARLY!
Cos of course everything happens very quickly in a fast jet.
Oh do keep up Red six...
You're all being a bit harsh about that roll thing - you really wouldn't want to balls that up.
And having had all of 10 minutes stick time on the Hawk myself, I can vouch for it being a twitchy little beast.
Amused me to note yet again how fast jet pilots all speak very quickly when they're relaying a huge list of absolutely essential life or death instructions.
Like LAX air traffic controllers.
Wouldn't this be the one time in life you'd want to speak VERY SLOWLY AND CLEARLY!
Cos of course everything happens very quickly in a fast jet.
Oh do keep up Red six...
Last edited by tartare; 29th Jul 2014 at 10:22.
Thought the program was well done, and showed the RAF and the Red Arrows ina positive light - which can't be bad!
I hadn't noticed before that the RAFAT now has an Officer Commanding, as well as the Leader, Supervisor and Team manager.
I hadn't noticed before that the RAFAT now has an Officer Commanding, as well as the Leader, Supervisor and Team manager.
VG -
The reappearance of RH was covered on Pprune about 5 years ago and you might find appropriate answers on there
[Edited because I found the thread and there was entirely reasonable comment that naming the chap concerned was unfair, and I wouldn't wish to cause offence by posting a link to a report which names him, no matter how anodyne the comment therein]
The reappearance of RH was covered on Pprune about 5 years ago and you might find appropriate answers on there
[Edited because I found the thread and there was entirely reasonable comment that naming the chap concerned was unfair, and I wouldn't wish to cause offence by posting a link to a report which names him, no matter how anodyne the comment therein]
Last edited by Archimedes; 29th Jul 2014 at 23:21.
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I thought the documentary was excellent.
One thing that struck me was that it reflected what I'd seen for myself, rather than being an artificial 'made for television' version. In March this year I had the great privilege of spending the day with the Arrows during which I sat in on pre-sortie briefs, watched 'Enid' (Reds 1-5) practising roll-backs and other formations, attended de-briefs while the pilots watched video footage of the sorties during which 'full and frank' constructive criticisms/suggestions were made and the more experienced members offered advice to the new members.
It was an important day for the team - they flew their first nine-ship formation of the year.
Like some others here, I would have found more 'technical' information very interesting but the programme was made for a wider audience than pilots/aviation enthusiasts.
Does it matter whether the AOC was wearing flying kit or uniform?
What came across in the programme was the intense preparation, dedication, professionalism and constant strive for excellence which have been hallmarks of the team since its inception. I've focussed on the flying aspects but was equally impressed by the professionalism and dedication of the support personnel without whom there would be no displays - the team spirit is not limited to the nine display pilots.
Al R
Rossian/Ancient Mariner has already answered the question. I hope I may be permitted, as a civvy, to add some further information.
The late Raymond Baxter, WW2 Spitfire pilot and legendary aviation and other outside broadcast commentator, told me that Red Arrows displays changed when Ray Hanna was promoted to Leader in their second year (1966). He brought "style and panache" into their already widely admired displays, “a new element of spectacle and artistry to display aerobatics.”
Baxter mentioned two significant changes introduced by Hanna:
Today’s displays still conform to the template he developed in the 1960s.
Today's Red Arrows continue the great legacy they inherited and continue to enthral and inspire millions of people both in the UK and around the world. Synchronised close formation aerobatics and breathtaking sequences by the Synchro Pair quickly earned the Red Arrows the reputation as the world's premier aerobatic team – a position they still retain in this their 50th display season. They have overcome the recent terrible tragedies - which some current members of the team witnessed - and produce magnificent displays which not only enthral and inspire but do more than justice to their predecessors.
We are entitled to be, and IMHO should be, proud that a British team is unarguably one of the finest aerobatic display teams in the world, and arguably the best.
FL
Edit
Link: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...ng-leader.html
One thing that struck me was that it reflected what I'd seen for myself, rather than being an artificial 'made for television' version. In March this year I had the great privilege of spending the day with the Arrows during which I sat in on pre-sortie briefs, watched 'Enid' (Reds 1-5) practising roll-backs and other formations, attended de-briefs while the pilots watched video footage of the sorties during which 'full and frank' constructive criticisms/suggestions were made and the more experienced members offered advice to the new members.
It was an important day for the team - they flew their first nine-ship formation of the year.
Like some others here, I would have found more 'technical' information very interesting but the programme was made for a wider audience than pilots/aviation enthusiasts.
Does it matter whether the AOC was wearing flying kit or uniform?
What came across in the programme was the intense preparation, dedication, professionalism and constant strive for excellence which have been hallmarks of the team since its inception. I've focussed on the flying aspects but was equally impressed by the professionalism and dedication of the support personnel without whom there would be no displays - the team spirit is not limited to the nine display pilots.
Al R
If you dissected how RAFAT flies compared to other teams, what is the difference, why is RAFAT deemed to be the benchmark that others aspire to? Do teams have different approaches to what they are trying to deliver?
The late Raymond Baxter, WW2 Spitfire pilot and legendary aviation and other outside broadcast commentator, told me that Red Arrows displays changed when Ray Hanna was promoted to Leader in their second year (1966). He brought "style and panache" into their already widely admired displays, “a new element of spectacle and artistry to display aerobatics.”
Baxter mentioned two significant changes introduced by Hanna:
(1) The team flew as if it was one big aircraft.
They flew closer formations, the distance between aircraft varying between 10 and 4 feet, depending upon the manoeuvre being flown.
(2) A flowing display without long intervals.
Whereas the highlights of previous and contemporary formation aerobatics displays here and abroad were achieved at the expense of intervals of empty sky while the team repositioned, Ray Hanna's underlying philosophy was that each manoeuvre should flow seamlessly into the next.
Baxter recalled that the transformation wasn’t gradual - the Red Arrows almost instantly became a star attraction across the world. His assessment of Hanna's contribution was confirmed to me by members of the team who flew under Hanna's leadership: Henry Prince (who, like Hanna, had been a member of the 1965 team), 'Dinger' Bell, Dickie Duckett and Ian Dick. Dickie Duckett, who led the team a decade later, said: “Ray had an instinctive feel for display flying." Ian Dick, who flew under Hanna’s leadership in 1968 and 1969, and was Leader 1972-74 said: ‘He was my role model. He was simply the best.’ I can't now remember which of Hanna's team told me, but a constant theme in his briefings was: "If the crowd have time to lick their ice creams we aren’t doing our job properly.” They flew closer formations, the distance between aircraft varying between 10 and 4 feet, depending upon the manoeuvre being flown.
(2) A flowing display without long intervals.
Whereas the highlights of previous and contemporary formation aerobatics displays here and abroad were achieved at the expense of intervals of empty sky while the team repositioned, Ray Hanna's underlying philosophy was that each manoeuvre should flow seamlessly into the next.
Today’s displays still conform to the template he developed in the 1960s.
Today's Red Arrows continue the great legacy they inherited and continue to enthral and inspire millions of people both in the UK and around the world. Synchronised close formation aerobatics and breathtaking sequences by the Synchro Pair quickly earned the Red Arrows the reputation as the world's premier aerobatic team – a position they still retain in this their 50th display season. They have overcome the recent terrible tragedies - which some current members of the team witnessed - and produce magnificent displays which not only enthral and inspire but do more than justice to their predecessors.
We are entitled to be, and IMHO should be, proud that a British team is unarguably one of the finest aerobatic display teams in the world, and arguably the best.
FL
Edit
The reappearance of RH was covered on PPRuNe about 5 years ago and you might find appropriate answers on there
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 30th Jul 2014 at 00:11.
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FL,
Thanks, Jenson Button drives differently to Lewis Hamilton, it's all about interpretation. I wonder if there was a bit of Big Wing throwback thinking in there too, steering things.
The business of Ray Hanna returning was covered in Flying at the Edge (20 Years of Front-Line and Display Flying in the Cold War) By Tony Doyle. Page 309 refers, you have to ask yourself if the matter would be handled any differently now! It's a book well worth buying.
Flying at the Edge: 20 Years of Front-Line and Display Flying in the Cold ... - Tony Doyle - Google Books
Thanks, Jenson Button drives differently to Lewis Hamilton, it's all about interpretation. I wonder if there was a bit of Big Wing throwback thinking in there too, steering things.
The business of Ray Hanna returning was covered in Flying at the Edge (20 Years of Front-Line and Display Flying in the Cold War) By Tony Doyle. Page 309 refers, you have to ask yourself if the matter would be handled any differently now! It's a book well worth buying.
Flying at the Edge: 20 Years of Front-Line and Display Flying in the Cold ... - Tony Doyle - Google Books