What happens to personnel serving in the armed forces if Scotland gets independence?

[Phoney Tony]

There are agreements with the US etc. There are noon place with Scotland.

[gr4techie]

Will we get a payrise in the Scottish Republican Airforce? No f'ing NEM or PAYD.

[melmothtw]

There are agreements with the US etc. There are noon place with Scotland.

Of course there aren't, because Scotland is part of the UK. Agreements such as this (and who gets what) would be thrashed out after an independence vote, not before it.

[gr4techie]

HM Forces personnel are not mercenaries.

Gurkhas ??

[Phoney Tony]

Thrashing things out takes time and money. Also you may not get want you hoped for.

If you think it's a good idea and are prepared to take the consequences vote yes but please do not assume everything will just fall into place.

[Bclass]

I join a club that gives me benefits and, while a member, pay an annual subscription. If I then choose to leave - I don't expect to get back my membership fees for the years I've been a member.
I have already enjoyed the benefits of being a member so I'd consider my investment 'spent' accordingly. Whatever happens to that club or its assets in the future is no business of mine - I've chosen to leave. Hey ho - all theoretical thankfully.

And if the committee went on a spending spree, tarting up the clubhouse with the finest furniture and heavily subsidising food and drink (benefits that you enjoy and make full use of), would you consider yourself liable to continue to pay fees to support that spending once you had left?

Just checking if your analogy and the principle behind it hold water...

[TomJoad]

Originally Posted by Sandy Parts

alwayslookingup - I join a club that gives me benefits and, while a member, pay an annual subscription. If I then choose to leave - I don't expect to get back my membership fees for the years I've been a member.
I have already enjoyed the benefits of being a member so I'd consider my investment 'spent' accordingly. Whatever happens to that club or its assets in the future is no business of mine - I've chosen to leave. Hey ho - all theoretical thankfully.

Err no not really, certainly not by any measure of international law governing such. You may be interested to note that HM UK Gov has already agreed to the mechanism in principle to be taken forward in the negotiation of the "settlement". Not like leaving a club at all them but more like dissolution of a contract and final disposal of assets.

[engineer(retard)]

If Scotland becomes independent, I'm sure I'll be entitled to citizenship there. However, where's the part in the process where I suddenly lose my British citizenship?

If Scotland becomes independent, plenty of us will consider staying exactly where we are in the jobs we have, as befits our British citizenship.

The UK government has to ensure that you do not become stateless, but also has no obligation to give you dual citizenship. As a betting man, I would expect they would just let your UK passport expire and not renew it. Working in the UK as a non-EU citizen would need a bit of sorting out as well. If you are still serving your security clearances may need revising if you are dual citizen as well.

I'm sure it will be fine on the day.

[4everAD]

I'm quite confident that most of the people who say they will vote for independence will change their mind when it comes time to place their crosses, common sense will prevail (hopefully).

[Sandy Parts]

er - have you tried getting into the US, Aus or NZ lately? Perhaps poor choice of word - "controlled" would be better than "closed". See the rather tedious online blurb on Schengen(sp?) for more.

[Sandy Parts]

for Bclass -I wouldn't feel I need to pay for excesses committed after I've left the club. If however, the club accounts show that the treasurer wasn't adjusting the membership fee to stay on top of expenditure and therefore I was 'under-charged' while a emember, I suppose they could try and ask me for some more money after I've gone (Don't think I'd pay mind).
But I also wouldn't use that as a bargaining chip to say I should be entitled to the nice new chairs they bought while I was a member. (Lets see how long we can stretch this analogy out )

[ORAC]

Reference nationality. Cross-post from something I linked to in the Jet Blast thread on the same subject.......

Thought this would be of interest. Stipulates who would be granted Scottish nationality after independence and whether they could retain British nationality.

DECLARATION ON THE CONSEQUENCES OF STATE SUCCESSION FOR THE NATIONALITY OF NATURAL PERSONS adopted by the European Commission for Democracy through Law at its 28th Plenary Meeting - Venice, 13-14 September 1996

......13.

a. In all cases of State succession, when the predecessor State continues to exist, the successor State(s) shall grant the right of option in favour of the nationality of the predecessor State.

b. When two or more States succede to a predecessor State which ceases to exist, each of the successor States shall grant the right of option in favour of the nationality of the other successor States.

Council of Europe Convention on the Avoidance of Statelessness in relation to State Succession - Strasbourg 2006.

[MarkD]

Not sure why Scotland would be obliged to provide similar air defence to the current set up to join the EU. It's not like Ireland provides any AD of that sort.

NATO would be another matter, but that would open the question of what's in it for Scotland to commit to joining that organisation, beyond the thinking that the Americans would meddle in the separation process if they didn't.

[BEagle]

Will the expat PWs be sent back to join the Jockistani Defence Force?

[adminblunty]

I'd imagine the Scottish Government will offer all armed forces personnel the opportunity to transfer to the Scottish Armed Forces, if someone elects to remain part of rUK Armed Forces I can't see how any government can force anyone to join the Scottish Armed Forces against their will, to do so will require primary legislation being passed in Westminster and Scotland and be subject to challenge in the courts no doubt. I doubt many rUK MPs will vote through legislation forcing rUK citizens to live and work in the Scotland. So assuming the Scottish get plenty of volunteers it should work out ok... If of course they don't get enough volunteers, or they get the wrong mix(i.e lots of infantrymen and not many pilots, engineers, etc) the Scottish Armed Forces will have a problem, unless they offer a compelling T&Cs proposition to get personnel join, which will cost them. Of course they could be inundated with volunteers and have the problem of selecting the right people, i.e is place of birth a selection criteria, if so would it be discriminatory?

I was posted to Scotland for a year and if this happened when I was there I would have firmly decided to remain part of the rUK Armed Forces and declined the Scottish offer and sought to move south pdq.
Imagine manning in a post yes vote situation trying to post a non-scot to Scotland against their will. It's a can of worms of epic proportions and we haven't even mentioned the kit.

[Courtney Mil]

One thing's for sure. In the event of a Yes vote, all the negotiations and the enactment of any agreements will cost the populations of both countries a small fortune. Sorry, did I say "countries"? I meant their tax payers. Did I say "small"? ...

A lot of companies will not want to wait for the outcomes to start moving N or S of the border - if, for example, they feel that the N market were too small or the difficulties in currency, separated markets, tax issues, EU border issues, etc., we're too complex or disadvantageous. That will cost them a fortune too.

With no answers whatsoever on the distribution of assets, personnel, etc., it is way too early for anyone to have enough information this side of (many moons after) the referendum. If Forces Pensions are so uncertain now, imagine what YES would do.

Good luck!

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, and regarding borders, don't we all need visas to go to USA, Aus, NZ, etc!? Have you seen the process one needs to go through to emigrate to NZ?

I think it fair to describe the current state of the Eng/Sco border as "open". You could miss it on the train or BA Shuttle and the Border Force on the road are represented by a large rock. Compare that with, say (just for mischief) the Mexico/US border (imagining Scottish families trying to cross whatever stream represents the Rio Grande to get into England).

An open border is yet another unknown quantity in this issue. But I'm Mr S has another empty promise to offer on that one.

[melmothtw]

Yes, all those countries require visas Courtney. Of course, the prospect of 'closed' borders doesn't seem to phase those arguing for the UK to leave the EU, many of whom are also in the 'No' camp on the question of Scottish independence.

[Bclass]

Sandy Parts - not going to drag out the analogy further, but it was useful in making a point i.e. those that think the club leavers have no entitlement to a share of the assets have to apply the same principle to the liabilities.

With UK national debt somewhere in the region of £1,300 Billion (and growing), I think a rUK chancellor would be extremely stupid to turn down the opportunity to lop 10% off that figure. With that in mind should Scotland vote yes there is no question that negotiations will take place to apportion assets.

[Red Line Entry]

The interesting aspect will be the Scottish Govt's negotiating position following a Yes vote. They will have very few levers to apply: if London offers them a crap deal, what are they going to say? 'Allright then, we'll stay?"

Personally, in the event of a Yes vote, I think the Scots may be surprised by the subsequent mood in England. A single currency might (or might not) make sense, but I guess that the English people will say, 'Up yours, Jock' and have no desire to be generous.