In the case of pilot error does the Captain always carry the can?
The basis of this discussion depends on how ‘error’ is defined; and thence problems of definition which include limiting thoughts and situations, and considering circumstantial factors.
Some areas of aviation safety have attempted to break out of these constraints – ‘Error is a meaningless concept’ - an introduction to a NATO conference on error (looking for link).
Similar issues are identified in:-
‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’
‘The Reinvention of Human Error’.
‘Perspectives on Human Error: Hindsight Biases and Local Rationality’
A more valuable approach for safety is to consider how circumstantial factors and the environment affected the individuals – variable human (crew) performance. This could be used to generate a better understanding of the overall situation (from which to learn) than that achieved achieved by ‘carpeting’ an individual; unfortunately the military is more biased to blame – structural hierarchy, and that 'blame' is for more satisfying both for individuals and those ranking above.
“Responsibility lies with those who could act but do not, it lies with those who could learn but do not and for those who evaluate it can add to their capacity to make interventions which might make all our lives the safer”. P. Capper, Cave Creek Commissions of Inquiry.
Some areas of aviation safety have attempted to break out of these constraints – ‘Error is a meaningless concept’ - an introduction to a NATO conference on error (looking for link).
Similar issues are identified in:-
‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’
‘The Reinvention of Human Error’.
‘Perspectives on Human Error: Hindsight Biases and Local Rationality’
A more valuable approach for safety is to consider how circumstantial factors and the environment affected the individuals – variable human (crew) performance. This could be used to generate a better understanding of the overall situation (from which to learn) than that achieved achieved by ‘carpeting’ an individual; unfortunately the military is more biased to blame – structural hierarchy, and that 'blame' is for more satisfying both for individuals and those ranking above.
“Responsibility lies with those who could act but do not, it lies with those who could learn but do not and for those who evaluate it can add to their capacity to make interventions which might make all our lives the safer”. P. Capper, Cave Creek Commissions of Inquiry.
"No stick = no vote. End of!"
A somewhat arrogant comment, I feel.
You have to consider what you are trying to achieve with the aircraft.
In the case of the Kipper fleet the aircraft was merely a vehicle from which to carry out anti-submarine operations, search and rescue, intelligence gathering or whatever. It was right that the person best able to conduct the operation should be in command. He did not need to clutch a stick to do so.
When I flew as a (pilot) Captain I found that it was not always easy to keep a mental picture of the tattical situation, particularly when manouevering the aircraft at 200' at night. It required, as I said earlier on this thread, a good level of teamwork with the rear crew, who had the situation displays in front of them.
Do ship's captains steer the ship? Do the Rodneys commanding tanks have to do the driving?
A somewhat arrogant comment, I feel.
You have to consider what you are trying to achieve with the aircraft.
In the case of the Kipper fleet the aircraft was merely a vehicle from which to carry out anti-submarine operations, search and rescue, intelligence gathering or whatever. It was right that the person best able to conduct the operation should be in command. He did not need to clutch a stick to do so.
When I flew as a (pilot) Captain I found that it was not always easy to keep a mental picture of the tattical situation, particularly when manouevering the aircraft at 200' at night. It required, as I said earlier on this thread, a good level of teamwork with the rear crew, who had the situation displays in front of them.
Do ship's captains steer the ship? Do the Rodneys commanding tanks have to do the driving?
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
The Army Air Corps deserve some credit for their CRM training, where disparate ranks are often crewed in a "reverse" rank structure, particularly with WO/SNCO aircraft captains flying with an Officer pilot. It seems to continue to work well and reinforces the point that in the cockpit, qualifications and experience are scored differently to seniority and rank. It also requires self discipline and careful monitoring to ensure that the apparent switching of rank and roles happens only in a carefully defined environment.
Back to the original question, if you signed the 700 and the Auth sheet, it's a safe bet you are pretty much accountable for the safe conduct of the flight, whatever your mission role might be.
Back to the original question, if you signed the 700 and the Auth sheet, it's a safe bet you are pretty much accountable for the safe conduct of the flight, whatever your mission role might be.
Ships' captains...
....having once had the dubious pleasure of being given a HUGE bollocking by the admiral in charge of Ark Royal (the old one).
He sat me in his scrubbed whitewood bridge chair and pointed out to me as the ops room hummed around us, a/c being launched etc that as long as it was all going nicely, everyone getting on with their jobs he just kept a watching brief.
"However, when it all turns to rats every bloody eye in this space will turn to me with unspoken question NOW WHAT BOSS??" That's when I earn my pay. Now go away and don't ever send a smartarse signal like the one you sent to me yesterday!!"
Cheery Aye Aye sir
The Ancient Mariner
He sat me in his scrubbed whitewood bridge chair and pointed out to me as the ops room hummed around us, a/c being launched etc that as long as it was all going nicely, everyone getting on with their jobs he just kept a watching brief.
"However, when it all turns to rats every bloody eye in this space will turn to me with unspoken question NOW WHAT BOSS??" That's when I earn my pay. Now go away and don't ever send a smartarse signal like the one you sent to me yesterday!!"
Cheery Aye Aye sir
The Ancient Mariner
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Well Exascot, can I presume you were never an instructor or an examiner where you performed as Captain while not in a seat at the flying controls? That might have sharpened your perception. At the same time, that is only an extension of a Captains overarching responsibility for all aspects of the operation of his or her aircraft, subject to the responsibility of other individuals to perform within their qualifications and assigned crew task. Also, you might find it worth contemplating the concept of a Crew Commander, assigned in addition to the aircraft Captain. Cheers
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OAP
Check the Falcon code...
.....other variations are available.
My post-sortie signal to the ship had contained some scathing remarks as to the ability of the ship's command team to employ me in a productive fashion along with their ability to organise a piss-up in a brewery. Or some such. It had gone on in some detail.
When my squadron boss found out why a Sea King had come to pick up one of his JOs to take him out to the carrier I was on the receiving end of another bollocking. That's what Flying Officers were for, innit??
The Ancient Mariner
My post-sortie signal to the ship had contained some scathing remarks as to the ability of the ship's command team to employ me in a productive fashion along with their ability to organise a piss-up in a brewery. Or some such. It had gone on in some detail.
When my squadron boss found out why a Sea King had come to pick up one of his JOs to take him out to the carrier I was on the receiving end of another bollocking. That's what Flying Officers were for, innit??
The Ancient Mariner
I'm not aircrew, so perhaps shouldn't have a dog in this fight, however, I tend to follow the Beagle line on this, regardless of who the Crew captain is, the Pilot in Charge is responsible for the safe prosecution of any manoeuvre or flight profile. Many remember rumours of a C130 landing at the wrong airfield in Turkey, when the Nav was "Harry Staish". ISTR that it was "Harry" who carried the can in that event, but did the bloke in the left hand seat get it wrong ?
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Do the Rodneys commanding tanks have to do the driving?
"let the corporal drive"......
.......yet another wigging; from a German colonel this time and gentler.
"the problem with you air force chaps is, you think a helicopter is an aircraft, it's a TRUCK! that's why we have corporals driving them!!"
NATO officers orientation course 1983 Oberammergau.
As an aside it was also the course where the first black US Army colonel in charge of a Pershing deployment was sacked by SACEUR whilst on the course for offering to punch out the lights of the aforesaid German col. and a USN commander and Lt.cdr in the bar at lunchtime.
The trigger was the remark "IGB!? I'll nuke it till it glows" Then the fight started.
On this occasion I had the sense to remember the advice "When the elephants are dancing don't try to cut in" and took my beer to a quieter corner of the bar.
The Ancient Mariner
"the problem with you air force chaps is, you think a helicopter is an aircraft, it's a TRUCK! that's why we have corporals driving them!!"
NATO officers orientation course 1983 Oberammergau.
As an aside it was also the course where the first black US Army colonel in charge of a Pershing deployment was sacked by SACEUR whilst on the course for offering to punch out the lights of the aforesaid German col. and a USN commander and Lt.cdr in the bar at lunchtime.
The trigger was the remark "IGB!? I'll nuke it till it glows" Then the fight started.
On this occasion I had the sense to remember the advice "When the elephants are dancing don't try to cut in" and took my beer to a quieter corner of the bar.
The Ancient Mariner
smuj "regardless of who the Crew captain is, the Pilot in Charge is responsible for the safe prosecution of any manoeuvre or flight profile. "
Of course he is. But as I said earlier, " A first pilot to a Nav. Captain was responsible TO THE CAPTAIN for the safe flying of the aircraft.
In almost all civilian flying, and some military flying, safety is the overiding consideration at all times.
However, in the case of civilian search and rescue, and much military flying, particularly on operations, risk to safety has to be balanced against the need to achieve the objective. If it were not so, SAR and military ops would never take place. The risk assessment may made be at high level, or by the pilot himself or by a back end Captain
If a pilot (who may be relatively inexperienced) has the authority to overide anything he considers less than 100% safe, whether it is an instruction from on high, or from a back end Captain we might as well disband all military flying
Of course he is. But as I said earlier, " A first pilot to a Nav. Captain was responsible TO THE CAPTAIN for the safe flying of the aircraft.
In almost all civilian flying, and some military flying, safety is the overiding consideration at all times.
However, in the case of civilian search and rescue, and much military flying, particularly on operations, risk to safety has to be balanced against the need to achieve the objective. If it were not so, SAR and military ops would never take place. The risk assessment may made be at high level, or by the pilot himself or by a back end Captain
If a pilot (who may be relatively inexperienced) has the authority to overide anything he considers less than 100% safe, whether it is an instruction from on high, or from a back end Captain we might as well disband all military flying
Oxenous - I clearly recall me, young first tour fg off still on a "White" IR, with the sqn cdr, very experienced wg cdr and wartime nav in the back. Flew one of the standard 360 ECM exercises and plot was then for me to fly the boss to Waddington for an important meeting. Cloud base and vis way outside white card limits so offered to fly him to nearby station with better weather. AEO sat very quietly in his corner whilst differences of opinion between fg off and wg cdr ebbed and flowed. Eventually the boss grudgingly accepted my refusal to break the limits on my card and we went elsewhere. Later he apologised in a very gentlemanly fashion. A year or so later when the whole country went out in fog I did break white limits getting into St Mawgan. On return to Watton RR was very gentlemanly in giving me a gentle b@llocking, and buying me a beer, in the same breath.
No stick = no vote. End of!
Spent many hours as captain (training) sat (stood actually) in the middle without a stick. I was happy to give up my direct 'vote' by trusting them to have the stick. By far the best way for them to learn, but they also knew that if I asked them to do something it would happen immediately before any questions were asked.
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The Stn Cdr was the Captain; rumour was he went down to B Cat and all the others went to E!
I once did a check ride as a B Cat co pilot with a captain A Cat who anounced that his MDH was 350'. The examiner said where do you get that from. He said he always used 350' for all ADF approaches
He had to maintain his A Cat so on de-brief the examiner said to me you did better than him so you must now have an A Cat I may have been one of the very few A Cat RHS.
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Oxenos
Hope you weren't at 200' otherwise you deserved to be on the end of a boll*cking for busting min height at night.
particularly when manouevering the aircraft at 200' at night.
1968 - tomorrows flying prog' goes up on the board; Staish Grp Capt Merriman ( lovely bloke RIP ) as captain on MCT with AVM Le Cheminant, SASO FEAF, flying as co on famil.
All the Flt Lt hairy navs disappear muttering ' I'm not well etc etc, this is one for the boy'. Well that's what 21yr old Plt Officers are for innit'.
Same happened next day when the night prog' was published. Staish was the most experienced Herc' pilot having done an exchange with the USAF before we got them, but AVM no time on type at all. AVM flew the aircraft with Grp Capt whispering in his ear. I survived!!
Years later I read Le Cheminant's autobiography ( I didn't even rate a mention
). Having marvelled at his very flat approaches I found the reason was that he was an ex-Sunderland man.
Talking of which, in '73 flying from Lyneham to Marham with Wing Pilot Abe Lincoln ( ex-Sunderlands & Shacks ) on the bunk. Captain, Howard M briefs for approach giving 250' as decision height, 'Any questions ?' says he. 'Yes' say I, 'You're a white card so add 400', DH is 650'.
'I'm using Abe's' he says. 'Not with me on the bunk' says Abe,'Good job the nav' spoke up as you 3 were heading for an E cat'.
Having flown a lot with Abe on 30, he we would have expected nothing less from me - he always expected and got 100%.
All the Flt Lt hairy navs disappear muttering ' I'm not well etc etc, this is one for the boy'. Well that's what 21yr old Plt Officers are for innit'.
Same happened next day when the night prog' was published. Staish was the most experienced Herc' pilot having done an exchange with the USAF before we got them, but AVM no time on type at all. AVM flew the aircraft with Grp Capt whispering in his ear. I survived!!
Years later I read Le Cheminant's autobiography ( I didn't even rate a mention
). Having marvelled at his very flat approaches I found the reason was that he was an ex-Sunderland man.Talking of which, in '73 flying from Lyneham to Marham with Wing Pilot Abe Lincoln ( ex-Sunderlands & Shacks ) on the bunk. Captain, Howard M briefs for approach giving 250' as decision height, 'Any questions ?' says he. 'Yes' say I, 'You're a white card so add 400', DH is 650'.
'I'm using Abe's' he says. 'Not with me on the bunk' says Abe,'Good job the nav' spoke up as you 3 were heading for an E cat'.
Having flown a lot with Abe on 30, he we would have expected nothing less from me - he always expected and got 100%.
"....offering to punch out the lights of the aforesaid German col. and a USN commander and Lt.cdr in the bar at lunchtime [SNIP] On this occasion I [SNIP] took my beer to a quieter corner of the bar
Obviously a single-seat fast-jet man
I recall during AOCs at a Norfolk fighter control unit Aunty Joan giving Ken Hayr a non-alcoholic beer at pre lunch sippers - reply was unprintable. two such lovely people. Resolved with a glass of the real stuff.