Pro-Russian rebels have downed a military transport plane

[TC_Ukraine]

The people of Eastern Ukraine want independence,

who told u that? ruSSian media? I have lot's of friends and relatives there. nobody wants neither to create new small country or become part of 2nd north Korea (called Russia).

I remember seeing footage of police being set on fire
in the street with petrol bombs.

1 no any policeman died or was seriously injured with fire
2 lots of videos showing how police were throwing Molotovs in the crowd
3 protesters started to use molotovs when we got "north korean laws".

[Ronald Reagan]

TC_Ukraine, my friends in the east of Ukraine hate the new government in Kiev. They were fairly happy until the President many of them supported was ousted in the coup. Now they want to get as far from Kiev as they can. If anything since the military operation by Kiev the opinions of my eastern friends have got ever harder against Kiev. If a group of people rise up in one part of the country and can oust a democratically elected President then a group of people in another part of the country can rise up, break away and create their own new country. Fair is fair after all! Western Ukraine can move closer to the western world while eastern Ukraine can be separate and closer with Russia.
The people of eastern Ukraine deserve their desire for freedom to be recognised.

[Karel_x]

I think that there are much places for discussing policy. This is aviation forum.

There is no chance to find common consensus who is who, who is aggressor, who terrorist, who is fascist, who is responsible for violence, what president, referendum or elections were legal or not. Ukraine consists of quite different people - Gallicians (now at government and very, very rusophobic) and Russians at SE part of country. There are also other nations in UE, but it is not important for this moment. Everything is very, very complex and cant be told in several sentences. We can bring hundreds of arguments for/against both sides. Violence lost its limits, a hatred is increasing on both sides every day. Blood calls for blood... Very sad, but in this forum also very off topic.

[Melchett01]

isnt cargo aircraft "off limits" ? unarmed ?

Nope, nothing is off limits in an insurgency. In fact, the bigger the bang you can create, the more publicity you generate and the greater the levels of fear you can engender, thus hopefully forcing the opposition to the negotiating table.

Plus there is already precedence for this sort of thing. A Belarussian Il-76 was shot down going into Mogadishu in 2007 and an Israeli 757 was attacked with 2x SA-7 whilst departing Mombassa Moi International in 2002. In both cases, Al Shabaab were implicated.

[Machinbird]

isnt cargo aircraft "off limits" ? unarmed ?

The short answer is, No, of course not, not during an insurrection.

Why do you think US C-130 aircraft used an assault profile landing approach going into contested airstrips in Vietnam?

I hope folks who do not want to get shot down remember to turn off all their lights going into contested areas at night.

[Super VC-10]

A/c confirmed as 76777, ex EP-TPY / UR-76777 / CCCP-76777

[Reinhardt]

With a little bit of luck, those casualties from that Il-76 will have been some of the US mercenaries fighting now in eastern Ukraine, as reported by a lot of people including the german Bild newspaper. Totally similar to Blackwater fighting alongside the Croats to oust the Serbs from Krajina 20 years ago - except that this time the Russians are going to be a much, much tougher nut to crack.
For your information a lot of people in Europe are no longer swallowing the usual propaganda from NATO, and be sure should US troops land there they will get such a welcome, Vietnam will have been a picnic compared to. But they seem to be busy in Middle-East again... also bombing themselves in Afghanistan, as they have been for years.


That why it's so much easier to send mercenaries, ar 1000 $ a day.


FYI, a european Air Force conducted less 8 months ago a squadron exchange with the Russian AF - same country which is currently polishing before delivery two beautiful assault ships (sort of aircraft carriers) which will fit very nicely in the russian Baltic and Black Sea fleets - thus making some to strangle themselves on the other side of the Atlantic, but who cares ....
So just to see how we care about it, enjoy the pictures :


Première historique pour les pilotes russes et français.


France Moves to Defy Allies on Sale of Warship to Russia - WSJ

[NutLoose]

You think if the deal does go ahead they would at least make it a proviso that the seized Ukrainian ships are returned

[500N]

Since the US never seems to take a huge amount of notice of anyone when selling arms to people, is it not surprising France takes no notice of anyone else.

[smujsmith]

I doubt the veracity of the claim that cargo aircraft are exempt attack. From personal experience in C130 ops in to Sarajevo, we expected ground fire, and experienced heavier stuff. All we hoped was that our training and intelligence briefings gave us a good indication on the day.

Smudge

[West Coast]

But is the US selling arms to someone currently they are at odds with?

I could be wrong, more question than a stance.

[500N]

"But is the US selling arms to someone currently they are at odds with?"

Currently.

With the US, friends one year, enemy the next !


The enemy of my enemy is my friend ? The US in bed with Iran to defeat ISIS ?

[West Coast]

So, no then.

[rh200]

With Obama who can tell who your friend is. is he still peddling the line that he won't supply Ukraine so as to not inflame the situation? I'm gathering the Russians arn't supplying them.