Al Qaeda takes control in Iraqi city
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If the fellow making that threat has taken himself off for a sunny (or Sunni) holiday in Iraq, at least there's a bit of a silver lining.
I read that ISIS have got their hands on a Saddam era chemical weapons store. How on earth...!?? So we spent an enormous pile of blood and treasure to remove WMD's...only for some murderous fanatics to get them. Great job,!
I read that ISIS have got their hands on a Saddam era chemical weapons store. How on earth...!?? So we spent an enormous pile of blood and treasure to remove WMD's...only for some murderous fanatics to get them. Great job,!
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Shot one
I read the article on that and a US spokesperson said "if we knew this would happen then we wouldn't have left the stockpiles there"
Why the hell did they leave the chemicals there in bulk, full stop ?
I read the article on that and a US spokesperson said "if we knew this would happen then we wouldn't have left the stockpiles there"
Why the hell did they leave the chemicals there in bulk, full stop ?
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I find this whole situation rather depressing. As one who served on Op Telic, it does appear that all our efforts, £ billions, time and lives were wasted. BritMil undertook their duties honourably and decisively but were grossly let down by the politicians who had no plan for the long game. Bush and Blair created a power vacuum, failed to fill it with anything viable, and now it is being filled with something far worse than we started with. For Obama and Blair, the ironically appointed Middle East peace envoy, to declare that it is not their problem / fault is deplorable hypocrisy. The footage of western trained and equipped troops being systematically executed in their thousands is an inglorious event in history.
Hard-ass dictators like Saddam, Assad and Gadaffi may have been a thorn in the side to the West, but at least they were more or less secular and managed to keep a lid on these volatile sh1tholes. I would have to select a secular dictatorship with zero human rights every time over fundamentalist anarchy with zero human rights.
We now have the delightful prospect of fundamentalist terrorists having effective sovereignty over vast swathes of land and nation status. Furthermore these d1ckheads are increasingly well established and organised from the 'Stans in the east to Nigeria in the west. I am concerned for what the future holds and I suspect that our experience in Northern Ireland will pale into insignificance compared to what's in store for the UK in years to come.
Hard-ass dictators like Saddam, Assad and Gadaffi may have been a thorn in the side to the West, but at least they were more or less secular and managed to keep a lid on these volatile sh1tholes. I would have to select a secular dictatorship with zero human rights every time over fundamentalist anarchy with zero human rights.
We now have the delightful prospect of fundamentalist terrorists having effective sovereignty over vast swathes of land and nation status. Furthermore these d1ckheads are increasingly well established and organised from the 'Stans in the east to Nigeria in the west. I am concerned for what the future holds and I suspect that our experience in Northern Ireland will pale into insignificance compared to what's in store for the UK in years to come.
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"Hard-ass dictators like Saddam, Assad and Gadaffi may have been a thorn in the side to the West,"
Apart from Gadaffi supplying arms to the IRA and Lockerbie, and maybe Saddam invading Kuwait, what have they really done that made them such a thorn, or did they just piss off the wrong people ?
Apart from Gadaffi supplying arms to the IRA and Lockerbie, and maybe Saddam invading Kuwait, what have they really done that made them such a thorn, or did they just piss off the wrong people ?
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I think there was a notion that all these countries would eagerly transform into nice little European-style liberal democracies, and all those nasty human rights issues would be a thing of the past. Look how that turned out.
I suspect the root cause of Gulf War 2 was Dubya wanting to avenge daddy, and Blair wanting to be his obedient servant, although the truth will probably never come out.
If we could have established a 'don't f*** with us and we won't f*** with you' relationship with Saddam and Gadaffi the world would probably now be a safer place. These dictators had woodchippers and meathooks to deal with the kind of people that are now commanding territory across Syria and Iraq.
I suspect the root cause of Gulf War 2 was Dubya wanting to avenge daddy, and Blair wanting to be his obedient servant, although the truth will probably never come out.
If we could have established a 'don't f*** with us and we won't f*** with you' relationship with Saddam and Gadaffi the world would probably now be a safer place. These dictators had woodchippers and meathooks to deal with the kind of people that are now commanding territory across Syria and Iraq.
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We'd done just that, torque, particularly with Gadhaffi. Right down to mutual prisoner torture-swaps. He'd handed over most WMD nasties too. If he'd kept them he might still be around!
I think there was a notion that all these countries would eagerly transform into nice little European-style liberal democracies
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This is why they went into Iraq...... Petrodollars
The Petrodollar Wars | The Iraq Petrodollar Connection
The Petrodollar Wars | The Iraq Petrodollar Connection
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Torque
I think you are correct with everything.
The "'don't f*** with us and we won't f*** with you' relationship" has one hell of a lot going for it.
The UK still had the Murdered PC to sort out but I still reckon that could have been done.
I think you are correct with everything.
The "'don't f*** with us and we won't f*** with you' relationship" has one hell of a lot going for it.
The UK still had the Murdered PC to sort out but I still reckon that could have been done.
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Torque Tonight....
There are many on here just like you, proud to serve, Queen and Country etc etc they thought it was a great idea at the time, don't question......
Please remember that millions thought it was a stupid idea without the benefit of hindsight.
Everything that's happening now could be logically reasoned before the Iraq wmd/terrrorist/democracy debacle commenced. It's literally not rocket science. I think the military are often too close to the **** to see the horse's arse, but please crack on regardless.
There are many on here just like you, proud to serve, Queen and Country etc etc they thought it was a great idea at the time, don't question......
Please remember that millions thought it was a stupid idea without the benefit of hindsight.
Everything that's happening now could be logically reasoned before the Iraq wmd/terrrorist/democracy debacle commenced. It's literally not rocket science. I think the military are often too close to the **** to see the horse's arse, but please crack on regardless.
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It's literally not rocket science.
I think the military are often too close to the **** to see the horse's arse, but please crack on regardless.
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Shot One: WMD Stockpile of chemicals. US intelligence has satellite imagery that suggests Saddam sent his stockpile to Syria, it is possible, due to the upheaval in Syria, that these chemicals have come back to Iraq - probably long time expired but still lethal.
Nut Loose - Iraqi oil, if Iraq never produced another barrel the cost of petrol at the pump would go up by no more than a cent or two per litre and probably not in the USA who don't depend on Middle Eastern oil anyway. Do you seriously think the USA would commit hundreds of thousands of men and billions of dollars to Iraq in order to save the rest of the world from a two cent rise in the price of petrol?
Nut Loose - Iraqi oil, if Iraq never produced another barrel the cost of petrol at the pump would go up by no more than a cent or two per litre and probably not in the USA who don't depend on Middle Eastern oil anyway. Do you seriously think the USA would commit hundreds of thousands of men and billions of dollars to Iraq in order to save the rest of the world from a two cent rise in the price of petrol?
I see the Police have gone from the PC "We think this may be a hate crime due to her dress" to the "We have no positive evidence at all". I wonder if this might be connected to the revenge tweet in between?
Political Correctness - bringing random murders by extremists to your neighbourhood, aided by social media - aren't they both lovely
Political Correctness - bringing random murders by extremists to your neighbourhood, aided by social media - aren't they both lovely
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Much as I'm irritated by the PC brigade, fox, we can hardly blame them because some nut-job murders a stranger whether it was because of how she's dressed or because a hatstand told him to.
Parabellum, read nutlooses link. The petrodollar doesn't depend on physical control of a given bit of oil, rather the currency in which it's traded worldwide. Whether or not that was the cause of the war, though is another argument.
Parabellum, read nutlooses link. The petrodollar doesn't depend on physical control of a given bit of oil, rather the currency in which it's traded worldwide. Whether or not that was the cause of the war, though is another argument.
Last edited by ShotOne; 22nd Jun 2014 at 15:41.
I feel the PC brigade has been calling so many things a hate crime, for so long, which weren't, that it is now an automatic reaction. This has consequences. If there was no evidence, then why was the initial statement issued? So, I feel we can blame the PC crowd for this one. I did say bringing, not carrying out. Extremists are now a reality, and nothing should be done to inflame them without evidence. The previous vicious stabbing in Colchester 3 months before was of a vulnerable white male. There would seem to be zero basis for making the initial statement about Islamic dress, other than PC. If anything, the statement should have been about vulnerable persons in general. I'm not blaming them for the stabbing; but they've clearly caused the incitement for revenge stabbings by Islamic extremists.
500N wrote
It appears that it was down to the state of the munitons in the bunkers at the Muthanna complex. They were sealed in the already bombed bunkers in the 1990s.
http://www.un.org/depts/unmovic/new/..._munitions.pdf
The current Iraqi Government signed the Chemical Convention and made plans for the destruction of those chemical weapons at Muthanna.
https://www.opcw.org/index.php?eID=d...sh&docID=15487
At least one of the bunkers was assessed as being too hazardous and plans were made to encapsulate it in more concrete.
Defense Treaty Inspection Readiness Program | Treaty Information Center
After the invasion the Iraq Survey Group made assessments at Al Muthanna and found that looting and razing had taken place.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...3_cw-anx-b.htm
Why the hell did they leave the chemicals there in bulk, full stop ?
12. A bunker at the storage area of the Muthanna State Establishment containing hundreds of artillery rockets filled with nerve agents was destroyed in part through coalition aerial bombardment in 1991. Because of the collapsed roof of the structure it was not possible to determine the exact extent of the destruction of munitions, nor their exact quantity (Iraq claimed that there were 2,500 munitions in the bunker). In order to prevent further contamination of the area with nerve agents from damaged rockets, Iraq, under the supervision of United Nations inspectors, sealed the structure with reinforced concrete and brick walls covered with earth. In 1994, Iraq
signed a protocol with the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) by
which it undertook to inspect the sealed bunker at least once a month to ensure that the seals were intact and the warning signs were not removed, damaged or defaced.
Iraq also agreed to seek the approval of the United Nations inspectors prior to
opening or entering the bunker as long as Security Council resolution 715 (1991) remained in force. There were also 16 other sealed structures and areas at the Muthanna State Establishment that contained potentially hazardous items and materials covered by the same protocol. UNMOVIC does not know whether these procedures have been followed up by the coalition forces after the withdrawal of UNMOVIC from Iraq in March 2003 or recently pursued by the Interim Government of Iraq.
signed a protocol with the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) by
which it undertook to inspect the sealed bunker at least once a month to ensure that the seals were intact and the warning signs were not removed, damaged or defaced.
Iraq also agreed to seek the approval of the United Nations inspectors prior to
opening or entering the bunker as long as Security Council resolution 715 (1991) remained in force. There were also 16 other sealed structures and areas at the Muthanna State Establishment that contained potentially hazardous items and materials covered by the same protocol. UNMOVIC does not know whether these procedures have been followed up by the coalition forces after the withdrawal of UNMOVIC from Iraq in March 2003 or recently pursued by the Interim Government of Iraq.
The current Iraqi Government signed the Chemical Convention and made plans for the destruction of those chemical weapons at Muthanna.
In accordance with Article III of the Convention and Part IV(A) of the Verification Annex to the Convention (hereinafter “the Verification Annex”), Iraq declared that the Category 1 chemical weapons it possessed were remnants—a result of 1991 military operations; in addition, this State Party committed to submit the general plan for the destruction of those chemical weapons to the Secretariat as soon as possible.
Progress on the preparation of the destruction plan approach for Al Muthanna bunkers
6. Further to that, the Iraqi authorities are interested in informing the Council of the progress that has been made during the intersessional period (from February to 30 April 2012) at the national level towards the disposal of the remnants of chemical weapons at the Al Muthanna site, in particular those in bunkers 13 and 41, which have involved a number of measures and activities
Progress on the preparation of the destruction plan approach for Al Muthanna bunkers
6. Further to that, the Iraqi authorities are interested in informing the Council of the progress that has been made during the intersessional period (from February to 30 April 2012) at the national level towards the disposal of the remnants of chemical weapons at the Al Muthanna site, in particular those in bunkers 13 and 41, which have involved a number of measures and activities
At least one of the bunkers was assessed as being too hazardous and plans were made to encapsulate it in more concrete.
Due to Iraq's unique circumstances, a final destruction deadline has not been set for the country. In February 2012, Iraq submitted to the OPCW a national paper detailing its approach towards the destruction of the contents in the Al Muthanna bunkers. In May 2012, Iraq amended its submission, noting that the remnants in Bunker 13 were especially hazardous and that the lowest risk course of action would be to irreversibly encapsulate in concrete the bunker contents.
After the invasion the Iraq Survey Group made assessments at Al Muthanna and found that looting and razing had taken place.
Exploitations of Al Muthanna
ISG conducted multiple exploitations of the Al Muthanna site to determine whether old chemical weapons, equipment, or toxic chemicals had been looted or tampered with since the last UN visit to the site. ISG is unable to unambiguously determine the complete fate of old munitions, materials, and chemicals produced and stored there.The matter is further complicated by the looting and razing done by the Iraqis.
ISG conducted multiple exploitations of the Al Muthanna site to determine whether old chemical weapons, equipment, or toxic chemicals had been looted or tampered with since the last UN visit to the site. ISG is unable to unambiguously determine the complete fate of old munitions, materials, and chemicals produced and stored there.The matter is further complicated by the looting and razing done by the Iraqis.
Last edited by TEEEJ; 22nd Jun 2014 at 19:13. Reason: Iraq Survey Group report added.
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Thanks for that.
What I was reading the other day was that some chemicals remained in BULK storage with the comment they didn't think that ISIS could make any chem weapons but the fact that they were left caused concern.
I need to do a bit of research as it was only in the papers for a day, if that.
Thanks for that.
What I was reading the other day was that some chemicals remained in BULK storage with the comment they didn't think that ISIS could make any chem weapons but the fact that they were left caused concern.
I need to do a bit of research as it was only in the papers for a day, if that.
Was this the strategy all along?
"Free them to kill each other, more or less their favorite hobby, and they'll leave others well enough alone."
Was that Bush's / Wolfowitz's / Rumsfeld's plan all along?
In this regard, the "Arab Spring" has been an immense success, as a serial strategy.
If there was one. (Not betting the house payment on that ... )
"Free them to kill each other, more or less their favorite hobby, and they'll leave others well enough alone."
Was that Bush's / Wolfowitz's / Rumsfeld's plan all along?
In this regard, the "Arab Spring" has been an immense success, as a serial strategy.
If there was one. (Not betting the house payment on that ... )
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Lone wolf.
No.
They could never think that far ahead.
Personally, I think the strategy was a very unfounded idea about 'kicking ass' as ones dad had failed to do.
There may be better theories, and if so, let's hear em.
It's easy to poke a hornets nest. Not so easy to stop them stinging.
No.
They could never think that far ahead.
Personally, I think the strategy was a very unfounded idea about 'kicking ass' as ones dad had failed to do.
There may be better theories, and if so, let's hear em.
It's easy to poke a hornets nest. Not so easy to stop them stinging.