Quick Tornado question
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: 50'11N 004' 16W
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quick Tornado question
I saw a clip the other day of a low level bombing over Iraq by a Tornado. After flying through lots of AA etc the pilot called for, what sounded to me was "Belfast check". Can anyone enlighten me what this is / was?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: 50'11N 004' 16W
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks, that explains it. Managed to find the clip again although the one I saw was cockpit footage with transcript. At 4:06 was the part I was querying.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, that's my own youtube clip (username Brecklander) originally on VHS tape. It was the XV sqn deployment at Muharraq, Bahrain. It was part of a longer compilation put together by the TV AM crew who were imbedded with us. I don't think it was a XV crew in the clip though as I don't recognise the voices.
My favourite bit..... they are 515 kts, pitch black and the nav says "lets get back down (to) 220 ft". Shame it had to climb to release the JP233 in the first place. There are a lot of Tornado knockers out there, mainly because of the F3 but the GR1 was a superb bit of kit in the strike role.
My favourite bit..... they are 515 kts, pitch black and the nav says "lets get back down (to) 220 ft". Shame it had to climb to release the JP233 in the first place. There are a lot of Tornado knockers out there, mainly because of the F3 but the GR1 was a superb bit of kit in the strike role.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: 50'11N 004' 16W
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vendee, I'm sure I saw a clip with the actual cockpit footage as opposed to just a transcript overlay. I was a bit drunk at the time though. Any ideas if the cockpit cam footage is somewhere out there or am I mistaken? I've tried searching but cannot find it.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never seen any cockpit footage during a live mission and I'm sure the crew had better things to occupy their minds. In the full length version I have there is some cockpit footage shot daytime at low level before hostilities broke out. It was taken by the nav (XV's Colin Ayton) on a hand held camera.
ex-matelot, indeed the radio check you refer to was the formation leader requesting a formation check-in post-target to discover whether everyone made it through the target unscathed. Whilst NVGs were in theatre and available, they weren't fitted to the helmets nor were the cockpits fitted with NVG-compatible lighting so you couldn't afford to pick them up to see whether you formation members were there or not.
Vendee...I don't know what you were flying but you didn't have to climb to release the JP233. Most ac ran in with Auto-TFR selected, that's the autopilot using the Terrain Following Radar to climb over obstacles on the ground (I know you'll know this, it's for others that maybe don't). Minimum height for the autopilot was 200ft above ground level. But you could disconnect the autopilot and fly the ac manually following the autopilot director cues in the head-up display. That would allow you to drop below the 200ft by up to 30% before the director gave up the ghost. Or you could remove the director cues and fly purely on the radar scope (e-scope)....a lot harder to do but then you didn't get the nuisance warnings. Neither of these options was easy to fly accurately so it could just be that they climbed whilst dispensing.
Luckily, most JP233 targets had fairly flat run-ins to them, (they were airfields after all) so it was relatively easy to drop down running in. However, the JP233 had a minimum height from which to dispense the munitions to allow them to arm and we planned to fly at a height where dudding started to occur, which was below 200ft. So you didn't have to climb to release them. Pedantic, I know but we should strive to be accurate.
The reason the Nav says let's get back down could also be that they left the autopilot connected and the GR1 had a nasty habit of dumping the autopilot as the JP233 cannisters released from the ac following sub-munition dispensing, forcing the ac into a pre-programmed climb.
I'd like to point out that I did not drop any JP233s during Op GRANBY, but I did spend 4-months prior to it planning & flying with them in Saudi & Oman in daytime & nighttime.
Vendee...I don't know what you were flying but you didn't have to climb to release the JP233. Most ac ran in with Auto-TFR selected, that's the autopilot using the Terrain Following Radar to climb over obstacles on the ground (I know you'll know this, it's for others that maybe don't). Minimum height for the autopilot was 200ft above ground level. But you could disconnect the autopilot and fly the ac manually following the autopilot director cues in the head-up display. That would allow you to drop below the 200ft by up to 30% before the director gave up the ghost. Or you could remove the director cues and fly purely on the radar scope (e-scope)....a lot harder to do but then you didn't get the nuisance warnings. Neither of these options was easy to fly accurately so it could just be that they climbed whilst dispensing.
Luckily, most JP233 targets had fairly flat run-ins to them, (they were airfields after all) so it was relatively easy to drop down running in. However, the JP233 had a minimum height from which to dispense the munitions to allow them to arm and we planned to fly at a height where dudding started to occur, which was below 200ft. So you didn't have to climb to release them. Pedantic, I know but we should strive to be accurate.
The reason the Nav says let's get back down could also be that they left the autopilot connected and the GR1 had a nasty habit of dumping the autopilot as the JP233 cannisters released from the ac following sub-munition dispensing, forcing the ac into a pre-programmed climb.
I'd like to point out that I did not drop any JP233s during Op GRANBY, but I did spend 4-months prior to it planning & flying with them in Saudi & Oman in daytime & nighttime.
just another jocky
Thanks for the insight.
I think I read somewhere that JP233 wasn't actually very effective on Iraqi airfields as they were different in length to Soviet/WP airfields which they were designed?
Was this the case or is that a little too simplistic a view? Would be interested in your thoughts as long as there are no security implications.
I think I read somewhere that JP233 wasn't actually very effective on Iraqi airfields as they were different in length to Soviet/WP airfields which they were designed?
Was this the case or is that a little too simplistic a view? Would be interested in your thoughts as long as there are no security implications.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,813
Received 140 Likes
on
65 Posts
Looking at the aircraft shadow, and comparing with the height of the fin, that Tornado seems to be getting down to about 25 ft agl at times 
Treble One – the JP233 was designed specifically against former WP airfields and so, because of the differing construction/standards they were not optimised for Iraqi airfields. That doesn’t mean they weren’t effective however, they were. The stick length of the weapon could be varied by various means so whilst some of the Iraqi airfields were quite long, you could stretch the stick length but remember, the aim was not to completely cover the whole airfield, but merely to deny a Minimum Operating Strip (MOS); minimum runway or taxiway to take-off or land from. Due to the size of some airfields, this would have taken most of the GR1 force to complete so on some targets the aim was to harass.
As it turned out, it didn’t take much harassing to ground the IAF though it was probably due more to threat of F15s/AMRAAM than anything else.
MPN11 – and lower too! For the GR1 dets that I was on prior to the war, we had no minimum height limits, so 0ft MSD was the norm. Imagine that….almost 4 months of sub-OLF!!! Actually, I found the lack of a minimum height limit easier to fly than an artificial 100ft MSD which we routinely operate to when OLF’ing as the aim was simply to not hit the surface as opposed to not hitting some invisible minimum height you could not see in front of you.
I recall the DetCO walking into the crewroom at Muharraq shortly after we arrived there in Aug 90 and announcing that Strike Command had cleared us all to 0ft MSD. I spoke with him a couple of years later at his Dining Out about this and he told me that he made it up, there was no clearance from Strike at all, he said it because we needed to do it. An outstanding leader not afraid to make big decisions in a time of crisis.
As it turned out, it didn’t take much harassing to ground the IAF though it was probably due more to threat of F15s/AMRAAM than anything else.
MPN11 – and lower too! For the GR1 dets that I was on prior to the war, we had no minimum height limits, so 0ft MSD was the norm. Imagine that….almost 4 months of sub-OLF!!! Actually, I found the lack of a minimum height limit easier to fly than an artificial 100ft MSD which we routinely operate to when OLF’ing as the aim was simply to not hit the surface as opposed to not hitting some invisible minimum height you could not see in front of you.
I recall the DetCO walking into the crewroom at Muharraq shortly after we arrived there in Aug 90 and announcing that Strike Command had cleared us all to 0ft MSD. I spoke with him a couple of years later at his Dining Out about this and he told me that he made it up, there was no clearance from Strike at all, he said it because we needed to do it. An outstanding leader not afraid to make big decisions in a time of crisis.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Next to Ross and Demelza
Age: 53
Posts: 1,235
Received 52 Likes
on
21 Posts
Am I right in thinking that in Iraq JP233s were used more against the taxiways to cut the aircraft off from the runways as they were so long?
Martin - they were certainly used against taxiways, but mainly because taxiways can be used to take-off & land so the aim was to deny them that ability. The Iraqis were clever enough to disperse most of their ac around airfields so there was no real point in trying to confine them to their HAS site or squadron parking area.
I am incredibly proud to say I was the 16 Sqn Rock and was given a copy of "that" vid with all the extras put on it. I still have it somewhere safe and sound and once in a while it comes out and I remember Kev Weeks and Gary Lennox who made me very welcome on the sqn.
In retaliation for relentlessly gassing the air and ground crew in in preparation for Op GRANBY I was treated to a back seat in a pink jet. Flt Lt Pete F-S pretended to show sympathy as I turned my insides into my outsides.
It was alright though I suppose.
It almost beats the thrill of teaching the annual GDT refresher and listening to the excuses about not having to do the 1.5 mile jog!!
In retaliation for relentlessly gassing the air and ground crew in in preparation for Op GRANBY I was treated to a back seat in a pink jet. Flt Lt Pete F-S pretended to show sympathy as I turned my insides into my outsides.
It was alright though I suppose.
It almost beats the thrill of teaching the annual GDT refresher and listening to the excuses about not having to do the 1.5 mile jog!!
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at the aircraft shadow, and comparing with the height of the fin, that Tornado seems to be getting down to about 25 ft agl at times
