The Real Bravo Two Zero
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The Real Bravo Two Zero
I saw the last few minutes of a C4 prog last night that really grabbed my attention. It was about Bravo 20, the failed SAS mission during the Gulf war.
As far as I could gather, the presenter (who/what was he?) was pooh-poohing the whole of the books 'Bravo 20' and 'The One That Got Away' and their respective authors by a lack of evidence of '250' bodies, no beatings on capture, no tracks to look for lost comrades. This raises some serious questions:
a. Do we believe the testimony of unverifed Iraqis on events 10 yrs ago? Are they likely to admit the beating of anyone, even on Western TV!?
b. If, however, Mc Nab and Ryan shot too much of 'a line', as was intimated by the ex- RSM, why has no-one in higher authority vilified them. Over glorification of their own exploits undermines their undoubted bravery but more worryingly, sets unattainable standards for today's troopers.
c. By not decrying Mc Nab and Ryan, are the MOD/22SAS guilty by association?
d. But, if the programme was a whole pile of hogwash, is the Hereford Gun Club going to support McNab and Ryan, or will they continue to keep schtum as they broke the 'code of silence' in the first place by writing their accounts?
As far as I could gather, the presenter (who/what was he?) was pooh-poohing the whole of the books 'Bravo 20' and 'The One That Got Away' and their respective authors by a lack of evidence of '250' bodies, no beatings on capture, no tracks to look for lost comrades. This raises some serious questions:
a. Do we believe the testimony of unverifed Iraqis on events 10 yrs ago? Are they likely to admit the beating of anyone, even on Western TV!?
b. If, however, Mc Nab and Ryan shot too much of 'a line', as was intimated by the ex- RSM, why has no-one in higher authority vilified them. Over glorification of their own exploits undermines their undoubted bravery but more worryingly, sets unattainable standards for today's troopers.
c. By not decrying Mc Nab and Ryan, are the MOD/22SAS guilty by association?
d. But, if the programme was a whole pile of hogwash, is the Hereford Gun Club going to support McNab and Ryan, or will they continue to keep schtum as they broke the 'code of silence' in the first place by writing their accounts?
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From: FL360
MIKE you didn't miss much in the rest of the programme. It was obvious from the start that Michael Asher set out with an agenda, and by the end of the programme it became clear that the agenda was to discredit McNab / Ryan and promote Vince, one of the troop who was KIA. The questions put to the the Iraqis were often leading, and it wasn't clear how much they were being paid for their participation. One of the main "witnesses" was an Iraqi NCO for God's sake, hardly unbiased you would think. Even some of the basic facts were questionable - if Chris Ryan uses a pseudonym and "hides" behind anonymity, how come his face is on the inside rear cover of at least one of his books?
The programme was so misleading and biased that it left me wishing I'd watched "Spooks" on BBC1 instead (and it's pretty awful).
Not sure what it's got to do with PPRuNe though, unless you count the fact that they travelled in the mighty Wokka.
The programme was so misleading and biased that it left me wishing I'd watched "Spooks" on BBC1 instead (and it's pretty awful).
Not sure what it's got to do with PPRuNe though, unless you count the fact that they travelled in the mighty Wokka.
Pukka PPRuNer!!
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From: PRMK
I watched the whole prog......
The guy presenting it is a desert explorer called Micheal Asher, whom I understand is ex-SAS himself.....
Of course, the local Iraqi's could be telling fibs
, and I understand there was a govt minder 
accompaning the film crew.......
But they did produce artifacts from the abandoned bergens, such as clips of ammo. Asher said they could only by UK issue....
I'm not ex-mil (apart from a short spell in the TA
), so I can't really comment on the soldiering stuff.....
But Asher (who looked a very fit bloke to me) was knackered carrying B20's load for a few kilometers, and said he couldn't possibly have managed 20.......
Finally, the most telling point to me was the real anger that Asher and the ex-RSM had towards these men, that they had let down the regiment........
Of course, the local Iraqi's could be telling fibs
, and I understand there was a govt minder accompaning the film crew....... But they did produce artifacts from the abandoned bergens, such as clips of ammo. Asher said they could only by UK issue....
I'm not ex-mil (apart from a short spell in the TA
), so I can't really comment on the soldiering stuff..... But Asher (who looked a very fit bloke to me) was knackered carrying B20's load for a few kilometers, and said he couldn't possibly have managed 20.......
Finally, the most telling point to me was the real anger that Asher and the ex-RSM had towards these men, that they had let down the regiment........
Last edited by swashplate; 21st May 2002 at 11:54.
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From: UK
I recently attended a briefing by a ex-SAS Captain of long-standing, to do with civilian airline security.
As an aside he made a few comments regarding his opinion of the performance of B20 - he personally had little praise for the professional conduct of McNab, and even less regard for his decision to write books...
As for those in authority supporting McNab or otherwise - it may be that the good PR from these books does the MOD a favour, and that by design most those in the SAS have the dignity and professionalism to keep their heads down?
I read the books many years ago - thought they were great - but have since had enough cause to doubt the integrity of the protagonist. Shame.
As an aside he made a few comments regarding his opinion of the performance of B20 - he personally had little praise for the professional conduct of McNab, and even less regard for his decision to write books...
As for those in authority supporting McNab or otherwise - it may be that the good PR from these books does the MOD a favour, and that by design most those in the SAS have the dignity and professionalism to keep their heads down?
I read the books many years ago - thought they were great - but have since had enough cause to doubt the integrity of the protagonist. Shame.
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Manuel
It certainly seems as if he had an agenda and agree that I wouldn't believe a word of the 'witnesses'. I wasn't sure if he was ex-Hereford or not but would understand it if he were. There definitely seems an undercurrent of dislike and distaste for the books from that part of the Welsh borders. Either they broke the code of silence and/or they bull!!!!!ted - I would suspect that McNab and Ryan are persona non grata in Hereford whichever way you look at it!
Yes, you're right - this topic should be on ARSE but I thought it one that might generate some interest - I'll get my coat!
It certainly seems as if he had an agenda and agree that I wouldn't believe a word of the 'witnesses'. I wasn't sure if he was ex-Hereford or not but would understand it if he were. There definitely seems an undercurrent of dislike and distaste for the books from that part of the Welsh borders. Either they broke the code of silence and/or they bull!!!!!ted - I would suspect that McNab and Ryan are persona non grata in Hereford whichever way you look at it!
Yes, you're right - this topic should be on ARSE but I thought it one that might generate some interest - I'll get my coat!
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From: Bar to Bar
I thought that Hereford had made all these book writers persona non grata and then employed McNab to police it! Sounds like an element of spin to me. I also went to the security brief and felt that the presenter of that section had nothing but scorn for McNab/Ryan et al. Didn't see the programme though and from what I have read here, don't want to.
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From: Beside the beach
Michael Asher has a bloody cheek. If he has a problem with people writing books, its only because his are so cr@p. He wrote a pisspoor book called 'shoot to kill' where he larged it up about his time in the forces.
Does he have a chip on his shoulder that B20 did so well? Or could it be that he's just released a new book himself - "The real Bravo two zero'? - which will only sell because of the popularity of the original.
Unbiased commentary I don't think.
Asher I pray to God that you read this because you have just shown yourself to be a world class knob with a spiteful agenda.
Hope you die.
ps - I've burned your crappy little book (Spout to Bore) and will take great pleasure in watching your latest rubbish wither on the charts.
Does he have a chip on his shoulder that B20 did so well? Or could it be that he's just released a new book himself - "The real Bravo two zero'? - which will only sell because of the popularity of the original.
Unbiased commentary I don't think.
Asher I pray to God that you read this because you have just shown yourself to be a world class knob with a spiteful agenda.
Hope you die.
ps - I've burned your crappy little book (Spout to Bore) and will take great pleasure in watching your latest rubbish wither on the charts.
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CR
Wow - I take it you don't think much of this Asher bloke - I tend to agree with you! There is certainly more than meets the eye to this claim/counter claim of ex- SAS peeps (personal rivalry?). However, my original questions remain - Did McNab/Ryan embellish the truth and what, if anything, will MOD/SAS/Mc Nab/Ryan do now? By saying nothing, then this chap Asher can claim (possibly unrightly) that he's uncovered the 'truth' because no-one in 'officaldom' has denied it.
Wow - I take it you don't think much of this Asher bloke - I tend to agree with you! There is certainly more than meets the eye to this claim/counter claim of ex- SAS peeps (personal rivalry?). However, my original questions remain - Did McNab/Ryan embellish the truth and what, if anything, will MOD/SAS/Mc Nab/Ryan do now? By saying nothing, then this chap Asher can claim (possibly unrightly) that he's uncovered the 'truth' because no-one in 'officaldom' has denied it.
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Of course the truth got embellished, how the hell do you expect to sell books?
If Bravo 20 was "Got dropped off, tabbed like maniacs, Chris dropped us in the ****, got into a brief firefight, ran like hell, navigation cock-up, all in the bag for a quick filling in" you wouldn't bother.
However, if you build up the reader, by telling them you were carrying several Jerrycans of water with you, and all this excess weight, especially a 3 day in and out job, then I would suggest, that Andy McNab, embellished a lot of what he said, to protect operational procedure.We cache water don't we ?The last time I did a long range patrol, we had a resupply. However, you can't have the suggestion , that BritForces were actually sneaking into Iraq, and near likely targets to cache water and ammunition, BEFORE the offical off now, can you?
Come what may, Andy and his boys got into trouble,attempted to fight their way out, didn't manage it.
The sniping from various people, including Chris "I should have been in charge" Ryan, and the SAS RSM, commonly acknowledged to be a proper w@nker , will carry on remorseless. All because, McNab was the first one to get the story down. After that, it's all just so much professional jealousy
Tony
If Bravo 20 was "Got dropped off, tabbed like maniacs, Chris dropped us in the ****, got into a brief firefight, ran like hell, navigation cock-up, all in the bag for a quick filling in" you wouldn't bother.
However, if you build up the reader, by telling them you were carrying several Jerrycans of water with you, and all this excess weight, especially a 3 day in and out job, then I would suggest, that Andy McNab, embellished a lot of what he said, to protect operational procedure.We cache water don't we ?The last time I did a long range patrol, we had a resupply. However, you can't have the suggestion , that BritForces were actually sneaking into Iraq, and near likely targets to cache water and ammunition, BEFORE the offical off now, can you?
Come what may, Andy and his boys got into trouble,attempted to fight their way out, didn't manage it.
The sniping from various people, including Chris "I should have been in charge" Ryan, and the SAS RSM, commonly acknowledged to be a proper w@nker , will carry on remorseless. All because, McNab was the first one to get the story down. After that, it's all just so much professional jealousy
Tony
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From: Sydney, Oz.
funnily enough, Im reading "The real Bravo Two Zero" now, and from the outset, Michael says he wants to investigate the circumstances around Vince Phillips death.
He doesnt dispute the courage of all of those POWs under the Iraqis, but questions some of the exploits/events and distances covered in the two books.
Solotk has summed it up pretty well. I think its an amazing story even if it could be read as a clinically written AAR. Based on what others have written, there seems to be some liberty taken with McNabs and Ryans books. Bravo Two Zero was a great read, and 'Andy McNab' is also a great story teller, he and the others have undoubtably been through a lot, but perhaps not as much as written in the bestsellers.
Under oath, Coburn and 'Stan' both stated that McNab and Ryan distorted the facts in their books, and Peter Ratcliff (Eye of the Storm) says that McNab and Ryans account differ from their official debreifings, and likened the books to "cheap war fiction".
It would seem what is an incredible story in its own right got embellished, and also unfortunately casts dispersion on those who died.
I agree that some of the methods and event is Ashers book are questionable, but he raises some reasonable concerns.
The other book I believe is "Soldier Five" by the Kiwi, Mike Coburn.
He doesnt dispute the courage of all of those POWs under the Iraqis, but questions some of the exploits/events and distances covered in the two books.
Solotk has summed it up pretty well. I think its an amazing story even if it could be read as a clinically written AAR. Based on what others have written, there seems to be some liberty taken with McNabs and Ryans books. Bravo Two Zero was a great read, and 'Andy McNab' is also a great story teller, he and the others have undoubtably been through a lot, but perhaps not as much as written in the bestsellers.
Under oath, Coburn and 'Stan' both stated that McNab and Ryan distorted the facts in their books, and Peter Ratcliff (Eye of the Storm) says that McNab and Ryans account differ from their official debreifings, and likened the books to "cheap war fiction".
It would seem what is an incredible story in its own right got embellished, and also unfortunately casts dispersion on those who died.
I agree that some of the methods and event is Ashers book are questionable, but he raises some reasonable concerns.
The other book I believe is "Soldier Five" by the Kiwi, Mike Coburn.
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From: Europe
HMMMM, did anyone who read either or indeed both the books really believe they were non fiction. I should imagine the real tale would bore the pants off Sadam himself!
I have to add that it has done little but damage the reputation and kudos of the Regiment in my mind and feel that the silent treatment is the only course of action by the mod!
I have to add that it has done little but damage the reputation and kudos of the Regiment in my mind and feel that the silent treatment is the only course of action by the mod!
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Mutleyfour
Spot on. The whole sad (books) affair is best forgotten. I have been told that the original Andy McNabb book was only written in response to the SF involved being sworn to secrecy by DeBillier about all their actions only to allow him first post with his own account.
Spot on. The whole sad (books) affair is best forgotten. I have been told that the original Andy McNabb book was only written in response to the SF involved being sworn to secrecy by DeBillier about all their actions only to allow him first post with his own account.
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From: FL360
Swashplate The artefacts seemed credible, but prove only that the troop was in the area.
Mike RO'Channel Have it on good authority that while McNab is indeed persona non-grata in Hereford, Ryan is not. More to do with personalities than books though, IMHO.
mutleyfour While I have a problem with Michael Asher, the books were presented as being non-fiction, so if there are major inaccuracies - like claiming to have killed lots of enemy when in fact you didn't bag any (don't believe Asher there) then the issue should be addressed.
solotk Agree with you about Ryan having a chip on his shoulder about not being in charge. It shows in his novels too.
zhishengji751 I haven't read Mike Coburn's book. Does Michael Asher refer to it in his book (wasn't mentioned in the programme)? Does he explain what payments or other persuasion were required to get the Iraquis to appear? Seems unlikely they did it for nowt, as they weren't in it to boast about how they managed to defeat the enemy in a bloody firefight, but rather waited until they fell down then gave them a cup of tea.
Oh I See SAS are now forbidden to write such books, but that was in response to the whole Bravo Two Zero / One that got away situation.
Mike RO'Channel Have it on good authority that while McNab is indeed persona non-grata in Hereford, Ryan is not. More to do with personalities than books though, IMHO.
mutleyfour While I have a problem with Michael Asher, the books were presented as being non-fiction, so if there are major inaccuracies - like claiming to have killed lots of enemy when in fact you didn't bag any (don't believe Asher there) then the issue should be addressed.
solotk Agree with you about Ryan having a chip on his shoulder about not being in charge. It shows in his novels too.
zhishengji751 I haven't read Mike Coburn's book. Does Michael Asher refer to it in his book (wasn't mentioned in the programme)? Does he explain what payments or other persuasion were required to get the Iraquis to appear? Seems unlikely they did it for nowt, as they weren't in it to boast about how they managed to defeat the enemy in a bloody firefight, but rather waited until they fell down then gave them a cup of tea.
Oh I See SAS are now forbidden to write such books, but that was in response to the whole Bravo Two Zero / One that got away situation.
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Other SAS Fiction?
Anyone got anything to say on Tom Carew's book about "serving" in Afghanistan? He was the subject of a rather embarrassing TV interview....
Again a shame that the real (or a close approx. of them) can't be told, I bet they'd be a lot better than the books were.
Rgds to all from BRNC
BL
Again a shame that the real (or a close approx. of them) can't be told, I bet they'd be a lot better than the books were.
Rgds to all from BRNC
BL
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From: No fixed abode
No way - I cannot agree with the argument that we should EXPECT massive over-embellishment in 'non-fiction' books just to make a good story. The occasional white-lie or half-truth may be acceptable for continuity/protection of the innocent but to invent 250 dead Iraqis is taking it a bit far, if that is what is inferred. Authors should tell the truth, accepting that life isn't quite as action-packed as a hollywood movie, or label the book 'fiction'!
However, and in my humble opinion, the accounts of B20 are full of tragedy, courage and triumph over adversity; even without the alledged elaboration, they would have been best-sellers.
At the final count however, I tend to agree with the sentiments already expressed that the 'Hereford Book Club' episode (including de Billiere) has, by and large, served only to tarnish the reputation of The Regiment and its silent majority. The only recourse for them and the MOD is to stay well clear of the issue.
The public, of course, are desparate for SF stories/info. But the less that is known, the better because the aura of mystique is what keeps the chaps 'special'. They certainly scare the pants off me!
However, and in my humble opinion, the accounts of B20 are full of tragedy, courage and triumph over adversity; even without the alledged elaboration, they would have been best-sellers.
At the final count however, I tend to agree with the sentiments already expressed that the 'Hereford Book Club' episode (including de Billiere) has, by and large, served only to tarnish the reputation of The Regiment and its silent majority. The only recourse for them and the MOD is to stay well clear of the issue.
The public, of course, are desparate for SF stories/info. But the less that is known, the better because the aura of mystique is what keeps the chaps 'special'. They certainly scare the pants off me!
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From: UK, sometimes!
It was interesting to actually listen to what some of the Iraqis interviewed in the programme said.
The one that really blew the credibility of their evidence for me was the guy that said he took the wallet out of one of the dead patrols pocket and inside was a photo of his wife and family! Now we all know about the 'out brief' and sanitisation in our world, I am sure the SF are just as strict!
Mad Mark!!
The one that really blew the credibility of their evidence for me was the guy that said he took the wallet out of one of the dead patrols pocket and inside was a photo of his wife and family! Now we all know about the 'out brief' and sanitisation in our world, I am sure the SF are just as strict!
Mad Mark!!
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From: Lost
Standby for turgid diatribe...
Swashplate: Asher carried most of his load as two bloody hand-held water containers. Most grown-ups carry such stuff on their backs and can thus go further..
ChristopherR: Yup agree mate. "Shoot to Kill" was over-exagerated nonsesnse with a (then) catchy title.
Oh I See: Yup agree mate. My missus has met DLB thru work and he is a classic upper-class political wannabe with his own selfish agenda.
And from me: Over a cuzza 2 nights ago a mate of mine who was intimately involved with SF support in the Gulf told me a few tales out of school...
1. A LOT of effort went into finding B20 when they went missing. It was (...Dunhovrin, you should know better than this. Don't do it again, please...£6) (Sorry!! _ DH) MacNab's eff-up going west that got them lost. My mate himself says a crew was briefed to try an unpreped strip in the hope the team were nearby.
2. Ratcliffe should not be sneered at just 'cos he spouts the party line. He led a convoy of 20 trucks into the Western Desert, before the ground war, in order to resupply teams. This was about 20 Herc-loads and 50-odd Chinnys. It was deemed less of a giveaway to drive than fly. His book is the best (ie real) read yet about the Gulf.
3. Personally I think that the success stories of B10, 30 .. et al should be told in vague terms now before the GBP and the Daily Maul think the SAS effort in the Gulf was a complete biff.
I cannot decry the heroism of B20 and I think DLB provoked the boys into getting their biased side of the story out but let us not forget who are now persona non-grata at Sterling because of ALL their books. The hoods know the full story...
Swashplate: Asher carried most of his load as two bloody hand-held water containers. Most grown-ups carry such stuff on their backs and can thus go further..
ChristopherR: Yup agree mate. "Shoot to Kill" was over-exagerated nonsesnse with a (then) catchy title.
Oh I See: Yup agree mate. My missus has met DLB thru work and he is a classic upper-class political wannabe with his own selfish agenda.
And from me: Over a cuzza 2 nights ago a mate of mine who was intimately involved with SF support in the Gulf told me a few tales out of school...
1. A LOT of effort went into finding B20 when they went missing. It was (...Dunhovrin, you should know better than this. Don't do it again, please...£6) (Sorry!! _ DH) MacNab's eff-up going west that got them lost. My mate himself says a crew was briefed to try an unpreped strip in the hope the team were nearby.
2. Ratcliffe should not be sneered at just 'cos he spouts the party line. He led a convoy of 20 trucks into the Western Desert, before the ground war, in order to resupply teams. This was about 20 Herc-loads and 50-odd Chinnys. It was deemed less of a giveaway to drive than fly. His book is the best (ie real) read yet about the Gulf.
3. Personally I think that the success stories of B10, 30 .. et al should be told in vague terms now before the GBP and the Daily Maul think the SAS effort in the Gulf was a complete biff.
I cannot decry the heroism of B20 and I think DLB provoked the boys into getting their biased side of the story out but let us not forget who are now persona non-grata at Sterling because of ALL their books. The hoods know the full story...
Last edited by Dunhovrin; 26th May 2002 at 15:04.