Surprise, Surprise.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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A huge amount has indeed changed in the 40 years since you joined. But when you joined, how much time did you devote to worrying about how the RAF had changed since 1934?
How many times have you returned to a place that you visited many years ago having enjoyed the experience the first time around only to find it completely different? The buildings may be the same by and large but the people and ethos are different. You're not really returning to the place as it is now, you're returning to a memory, and that memory belongs in the past. Hence the oft quoted 'never go back.'
I wasn't complaining as such, simply pointing out that things have changed and in which way I thought they had changed. I'm sure that some things have changed for the better, some for the worse. The RAF still has a 'can do' attitude as far as I can see, it's just that these days the 'yep we can do that' is usually followed by 'who's going to sign off the risk for it?'.
It's a brave new world.
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I'm genuinely not trying to be rude, but this website is too often filled with laments for times past, viewed firmly through rose-coloured (or whisky) glasses. I have no doubt that in 1974 there were plenty of retirees moaning about the state of the RAF, the only difference was that they were doing their moaning in the confines of the RAFA club and those serving didn't have to hear them!
Quote:
Where will SERCO get its cheap work force from when there will be no trained technicians with a pension to recruit. The sums won't add up when they have to spend some of the money they receive for their contracts on training, and paying a decent wage!
Haltonapp
Nail, Head
I recall pointing this out from a Flight Safety perspective in 1992, and that it wouldn't show up for 20 years until drawdown flattened out, but then the Service would be totally f#cked.
It's a bit like building a pretty house on that really cheap land next to the volcano......
One of my last jobs in `glider` command was to audit civilian maintenance contracts. I recall in the out brief with the civilian "OC Eng Wg low cost option" at a Northern training establishment, saying pretty much the same as the comments above... Unsurprisingly the response was totally underwhelming.
The laws of diminishing returns and the dangers of short term expediency were being ignored even then... I believe the contractor now builds trains.....
Where will SERCO get its cheap work force from when there will be no trained technicians with a pension to recruit. The sums won't add up when they have to spend some of the money they receive for their contracts on training, and paying a decent wage!
Haltonapp
Nail, Head
I recall pointing this out from a Flight Safety perspective in 1992, and that it wouldn't show up for 20 years until drawdown flattened out, but then the Service would be totally f#cked.
It's a bit like building a pretty house on that really cheap land next to the volcano......
One of my last jobs in `glider` command was to audit civilian maintenance contracts. I recall in the out brief with the civilian "OC Eng Wg low cost option" at a Northern training establishment, saying pretty much the same as the comments above... Unsurprisingly the response was totally underwhelming.
The laws of diminishing returns and the dangers of short term expediency were being ignored even then... I believe the contractor now builds trains.....
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People are leaving as they feel very let down from the powers above. Undervalued might be the word, but for years people have asked the same question but nobody wanted to listen and here we are it's too late. As more leave an increasing burden is left on those remaining, those left see others successfully moving into civvy street and being happy adds to the problem as they leave. It is irreversible now , past the point of a serious flight safety risk IMHO as too much experience is gone. It is sad to see but the heirachy were aware of these burning issues years ago and failed to act. Personally I left as I hated it in the end, walked into a job that pays double and endless career opportunities but I do miss it in some ways. Money will always win though
"Why are so many aircraft technicians wanting to leave? "
Quite simply:
Undervalued; underpaid; overstretched.
The work patterns run all the people down. There are no long term incentives, no morale and those that are married are unlikley to have any real home/family life.
There is the percieved lack of career path - even for the RAF which has always had the slowest of Armed Forces career paths, I suspect due to the drawdown in size.
This manpower shortage should have been prioritised when the Big-Wigs saw the damage that occurred at Lossie two/three years ago when the OCU was stopped operating.
In my (apparently poor) opinion few line maintenance tasks were done 'correctly' - the quick-fix is prime and has become the Norm. (Do anything to get another Sortie off - and repeating the same fix for (yes) hundreds of hours.)
I classified most of the work methods as a subtle form of BDR (although, clearly, no external patches or broomsticks were visible)
This is not the guys' fault - the training in schools is mainly fine (and in most parts it's in-line with Civvy standards) but, as soon as they get to a Line environment, the "proper" way to do jobs is taught to the new guys and they lose most of their training Standards (this happened to me in the 1970's too, btw, so it's not a new phenomenon) but nowadays the Line has been practising OTRs for months on end, In-Theatre and in training.
The Army-style pay deal has severly undervalued their worth and, for some, their integrity.
Sure, some still do give their all...but how long can they do that for?
So they leave, in droves, for home lives, stability, money, conditions, a quiet life, a future under their control...and who can blame them.
Quite simply:
Undervalued; underpaid; overstretched.
The work patterns run all the people down. There are no long term incentives, no morale and those that are married are unlikley to have any real home/family life.
There is the percieved lack of career path - even for the RAF which has always had the slowest of Armed Forces career paths, I suspect due to the drawdown in size.
This manpower shortage should have been prioritised when the Big-Wigs saw the damage that occurred at Lossie two/three years ago when the OCU was stopped operating.
In my (apparently poor) opinion few line maintenance tasks were done 'correctly' - the quick-fix is prime and has become the Norm. (Do anything to get another Sortie off - and repeating the same fix for (yes) hundreds of hours.)
I classified most of the work methods as a subtle form of BDR (although, clearly, no external patches or broomsticks were visible)
This is not the guys' fault - the training in schools is mainly fine (and in most parts it's in-line with Civvy standards) but, as soon as they get to a Line environment, the "proper" way to do jobs is taught to the new guys and they lose most of their training Standards (this happened to me in the 1970's too, btw, so it's not a new phenomenon) but nowadays the Line has been practising OTRs for months on end, In-Theatre and in training.
The Army-style pay deal has severly undervalued their worth and, for some, their integrity.
Sure, some still do give their all...but how long can they do that for?
So they leave, in droves, for home lives, stability, money, conditions, a quiet life, a future under their control...and who can blame them.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Options for change in 1990 was the beginning of the the process leading to the final decimation of UK Armed Forces.
B@stard Tories........again.
Ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Options_for_Change
B@stard Tories........again.
Ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Options_for_Change
Last edited by glad rag; 12th May 2014 at 09:16. Reason: Adding a reference [of sorts]
I can't think of any other employer that pays it's technicians less than the chips and beans cook who works in the canteen.
Well, for the apparently terrible state of technical training these days, it seems like No 1 School of Technical Training can still put on a damn good parade, as Princess Anne gave them a new Queen's Colour yesterday.
Well done to all the guys and girls at Cosford! Only one flt lt as parade commander, all other major roles filled by trainees, including the two Colour bearers and the flight commanders.
Well done to all the guys and girls at Cosford! Only one flt lt as parade commander, all other major roles filled by trainees, including the two Colour bearers and the flight commanders.
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Ex Apprentice rant!
Having extra ranks to jump through for the tech branch without a financial reward for technical skills has always been a big bug bear of mine.
A non TG1 or TG2 can achieve FS rank relatively easily by age 47 and get signed on for a full career to age 55 whilst a Tech may be stuck at CT rank and have to leave at age 47.
Is that fair?
I had a great time doing what I did but I'm glad I jumped early even though I was in till age 55.
I could go into the degradation of training and lack of career development but I think that's been covered.
A non TG1 or TG2 can achieve FS rank relatively easily by age 47 and get signed on for a full career to age 55 whilst a Tech may be stuck at CT rank and have to leave at age 47.
Is that fair?
I had a great time doing what I did but I'm glad I jumped early even though I was in till age 55.
I could go into the degradation of training and lack of career development but I think that's been covered.
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Red Line Entry
I wonder how much "training time" was taken away practising for the parade....?
Well done for the standard achieved, but I bet it was the highest priority task for a while.
I wonder how much "training time" was taken away practising for the parade....?
Well done for the standard achieved, but I bet it was the highest priority task for a while.
Times change, however a/c still get wet and corrode. A/c still leak fluids and wiring rots. How many times over the last four decades have I been told 'this a/c will never go wrong'. Having LRU's is fine however it's the bits in-between that link them, you still need sound engineering skills.
Around 15yrs ago 'Battle Damage' training started to wain and more or less came to a standstill. As I still believe the ultimate reason for having the RAF is 'battle' I would be interested to know what training is done these days to repair a/c damaged by enemy action.
Around 15yrs ago 'Battle Damage' training started to wain and more or less came to a standstill. As I still believe the ultimate reason for having the RAF is 'battle' I would be interested to know what training is done these days to repair a/c damaged by enemy action.
Ogre,
Good point, but isn't the job of Cosford to push out people with BOTH technical skills AND with the proper Service ethos? If it were just to tell them how to fix aircraft then we might as well civilianise Cosford entirely and have done with it!
Good point, but isn't the job of Cosford to push out people with BOTH technical skills AND with the proper Service ethos? If it were just to tell them how to fix aircraft then we might as well civilianise Cosford entirely and have done with it!
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Well done for them achieving the standard they did, but I wonder how much "training time" was lost practicing for the parade?
For the Coronation Route lining in 1953, we Boy Entrants at Yatesbury did all of the extra drill in the evenings after tea!
No training time lost.
A well done for the current guys at Cosford.
Last edited by ian16th; 14th May 2014 at 09:11. Reason: Add the well done.
... did all of the extra drill in the evenings after tea!
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I always found (Army wise) if you had people who wanted to be there
and were switched on, it didn't take much time to get it right.
A lot of pride taken by the trainees in doing it, a lot of motivation
to put on a good show ????
and were switched on, it didn't take much time to get it right.
A lot of pride taken by the trainees in doing it, a lot of motivation
to put on a good show ????