Surprise, Surprise.
When we got our Lightnings on 92 we had a very large towable test kit (forget the name) with the maker's rep to supervise the use. It was supposed to diagnose faults with the radar and associated systems. By the time it was set up and the self test routine completed we had inevitably solved the problem by using nothing more than our excellent tech training and experience.
What I find disappointing about the content of the article is that these issues were identified in 2008 in the RAF's response to the Haddon-Cave Report. I recall Air Command (as was) putting all sorts of procedures and practises in place to address gapping, skills fade &c &c...but, from what I can see, the problem has become worse (with redundancies muddying the, err, mud, even more so). What should be done now?
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It may appear to be a small point to their Airships in their ivory towers, but to my mind, pride in the technical trades all but disappeared with the demise of the JT rank. Those who never wore the rank will simply not understand that an SAC badge with a circle does simply not engender the same spirit. 
Bear
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BB,
What you say is so true, but compared to the USAF the RAF has never truly valued its technicians.
Take a look at the Wiki page comparing NATO ranks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_...ATO_air_forces
See how many ranks the RAF manages to compress into OR2!
In the USAF the technical skills of the RAF SAC Technical gets you into the Sgts Mess, in the RAF he isn't even in the Cpl's Club!
What you say is so true, but compared to the USAF the RAF has never truly valued its technicians.
Take a look at the Wiki page comparing NATO ranks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_...ATO_air_forces
See how many ranks the RAF manages to compress into OR2!
In the USAF the technical skills of the RAF SAC Technical gets you into the Sgts Mess, in the RAF he isn't even in the Cpl's Club!
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It may appear to be a small point to their Airships in their ivory towers, but to my mind, pride in the technical trades all but disappeared with the demise of the JT rank. Those who never wore the rank will simply not understand that an SAC badge with a circle does simply not engender the same spirit.
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Saintsman
Smuj, it seems the RAF still do 'apprenticeships'. 5 months at Cosford followed by 2 years on the job and then a further year at Cosford (if they make the grade...).
That's not a great deal different to the Mech and Fitters course of old durations.
Smuj, it seems the RAF still do 'apprenticeships'. 5 months at Cosford followed by 2 years on the job and then a further year at Cosford (if they make the grade...).
That's not a great deal different to the Mech and Fitters course of old durations.
I feel the main falling point apart from skills levels, is the disparity in pay structure where a Tech was valued at the same as a Chef or a pencil pusher, sorry if those in those trades will feel the need to argue the toss, but when they hit Civi street, they wil have their eyes opened between pay grades, flipping burgers or cooking high end cuisine 12 hours a day pays peanuts compared to Aircraft Engineers, chuck in licence pay at an airline and they will be earning more than some aircrews.
That's what needs to be sorted first and foremost, it used to be linked to Civilian equivalent earnings, without that the gate is open and the sun is shining on the other side of the hill.
Last edited by NutLoose; 9th May 2014 at 11:18.
Where will SERCO get its cheap work force from when there will be no trained technicians with a pension to recruit. The sums won't add up when they have to spend some of the money they receive for their contracts on training, and paying a decent wage!
Haltonapp
Haltonapp
Nail, HeadI recall pointing this out from a Flight Safety perspective in 1992, and that it wouldn't show up for 20 years until drawdown flattened out, but then the Service would be totally f#cked.
It's a bit like building a pretty house on that really cheap land next to the volcano.......
Quote:
Where will SERCO get its cheap work force from when there will be no trained technicians with a pension to recruit. The sums won't add up when they have to spend some of the money they receive for their contracts on training, and paying a decent wage!
Haltonapp
Nail, Head
I recall pointing this out from a Flight Safety perspective in 1992, and that it wouldn't show up for 20 years until drawdown flattened out, but then the Service would be totally f#cked.
It's a bit like building a pretty house on that really cheap land next to the volcano.......
Where will SERCO get its cheap work force from when there will be no trained technicians with a pension to recruit. The sums won't add up when they have to spend some of the money they receive for their contracts on training, and paying a decent wage!
Haltonapp
Nail, Head
I recall pointing this out from a Flight Safety perspective in 1992, and that it wouldn't show up for 20 years until drawdown flattened out, but then the Service would be totally f#cked.
It's a bit like building a pretty house on that really cheap land next to the volcano.......
and continually try to impose business practices on Defence, whilst believing that more and more of Defence can be farmed out to contractors because that saves money 
and industry are the most efficient way of delivering "stuff" we are doomed to live in an ever decreasing spiral. I had thought that SofS might be on the verge of changing his mind follwoing Defence's bail-out of the Olympics and G4S but unfortunately the "Whole Farce Concept" is being talked about again. Its not as if we don't have experience of this happening - one of the luckiest bits of Defence "planning" was the closure of RAF Finningley in the 90s - just as the aircraft maintenence contractor was about to have to start raising his bill dramatically because he had to introduce and charge for a tech apprenticeship scheme by used up the pool of retiring RAF techies and pi**ing them off completely by paying such rubbish wages. Those of us who served through the first rounds of contractorization never forecasted this....... Oh Yes. We did. WE TOLD YOU SO!!!!
Politicians are, sadly, not that stupid. The aim is to save the money in the current Parliament, then hope it all goes horribly wrong when the other Party gets a go at Government. If it goes wrong in your next Government, blame the previous Party. It's an inevitable result of a two/three party system with no rights of recall.
However, 'horribly wrong' is a relative term. Politician's children generally don't go near the military these days, so it isn't their offspring who get shot/killed because of bad training or kit.
Of course, they are assuming the country won't collapse/get invaded. Perhaps that would be 'hoping' rather than 'assuming'. They have a habit of not looking at things they don't like the look of, if you catch my meaning. You know, like the way 2-year-olds cover their eyes to hide from big dogs.
However, 'horribly wrong' is a relative term. Politician's children generally don't go near the military these days, so it isn't their offspring who get shot/killed because of bad training or kit.
Of course, they are assuming the country won't collapse/get invaded. Perhaps that would be 'hoping' rather than 'assuming'. They have a habit of not looking at things they don't like the look of, if you catch my meaning. You know, like the way 2-year-olds cover their eyes to hide from big dogs.
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I've witnessed this happen first hand, on my unit 270 people in trade group 1 PVR'd in 18 months. Approx 35% of the stations TG1 strength. Thats 1500 years worth of experience. And people are still leaving.
I've questioned this at every opportunity and the answer I've always received is the airships denying there's a problem. As they do not differentiate between a 17 year old kid who's currently going through training and an experienced, highly skilled and qualified NCO who's PVR'd. To the airships it's just a game of numbers... Bums on seats.
The problem is not caused by the oil and gas industry pulling people out. But the RAF's lack of loyalty and no longer looking after it's own manpower, this is what pushes people out. I can't think of any other employer that pays it's technicians less than the chips and beans cook who works in the canteen.
Even though I have seen some old guys turn their nose up at the new kids coming through. I do not blame the kids when their training has been cut back. Nowadays the priority of training schools is to make the bean counters happy and a fast turn over time, rather than provide high quality training. I don't think the old guys attitudes of moaning about the recruits help, because if they are not happy with the quality of the recruits, what have they done to bring on and develop theses guys?
I am disappointed that todays work is all about removing black boxes and send them off, rather than having the ability to repair the black box ourselves. This has caused the problem of waiting for spares to arrive on unit.
The modern apprenticeship is really only an apprenticeship in name form only, it's one of those govt schemes that pull the wool over peoples eyes, it sounds nice on paper but in reality it's not worth the paper it's written on. For example, the govt is seen to be training youth, but in reality the training is a token effort.
From my experience, the problem with being dependent on test-sets is when the serviceability of the test-set is is questionable... Does the fault lay within the aircraft or is it the test-set playing up? This happens a lot with pitot-static test-sets that often leak. A fitter then has to waste considerable man hours going around in circles trying to get a serviceable test-set together.
I've questioned this at every opportunity and the answer I've always received is the airships denying there's a problem. As they do not differentiate between a 17 year old kid who's currently going through training and an experienced, highly skilled and qualified NCO who's PVR'd. To the airships it's just a game of numbers... Bums on seats.
The problem is not caused by the oil and gas industry pulling people out. But the RAF's lack of loyalty and no longer looking after it's own manpower, this is what pushes people out. I can't think of any other employer that pays it's technicians less than the chips and beans cook who works in the canteen.
Even though I have seen some old guys turn their nose up at the new kids coming through. I do not blame the kids when their training has been cut back. Nowadays the priority of training schools is to make the bean counters happy and a fast turn over time, rather than provide high quality training. I don't think the old guys attitudes of moaning about the recruits help, because if they are not happy with the quality of the recruits, what have they done to bring on and develop theses guys?
I am disappointed that todays work is all about removing black boxes and send them off, rather than having the ability to repair the black box ourselves. This has caused the problem of waiting for spares to arrive on unit.
The modern apprenticeship is really only an apprenticeship in name form only, it's one of those govt schemes that pull the wool over peoples eyes, it sounds nice on paper but in reality it's not worth the paper it's written on. For example, the govt is seen to be training youth, but in reality the training is a token effort.
From my experience, the problem with being dependent on test-sets is when the serviceability of the test-set is is questionable... Does the fault lay within the aircraft or is it the test-set playing up? This happens a lot with pitot-static test-sets that often leak. A fitter then has to waste considerable man hours going around in circles trying to get a serviceable test-set together.
the problem with being dependent on test-sets is when the serviceability of the test-set is is questionable..
) wheels before it was found that his hammer was cracked!It was a reminder that Test Sets needed calibrating and servicing as well as installations.
Regards, Den.
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When we got our Lightnings on 92 we had a very large towable test kit
I left in '96 but as a member of RAFFCA I started flying three years ago from the last unit I served at. My how things have changed...apart from the aircraft of course, they are exactly the same ones that I left bereft of my technical knowledge in '96. It's a totally alien Air Force to the one I left and might as well be from another galaxy cf the one I joined on May 14th 1974. 40 years ago this Wednesday. Scary.
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In what way different?
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Off the top of my head: Pay as you dine, techies being payed the same as scribblies, Painter and Finishers gone (have the Squippers gone too?), OM totally empty on Friday evening, the ratio of Officers to Airmen, the amount of hi viz vests you see being worn, the amount of business speak I hear in everyday conversation, stakeholders (are we back to chucking spears then?), envisioning, corporate entity etc etc. If I thought for a while I could probably fill two pages.
As to how it's changed since '74. Well, several things spring to mind. Flying the Lossie station volleyball team in a Shack down south for a match, a jock on Harriers in Germany nipping home to UK in a GR3 one weekend to buy a house, putting on a VC10 for me and three colleagues who needed to get from Brize to Luton in superquick time. The bean counters hadn't been invented then and Things Got Done No Questions.
The people were different too. On my first unit which was F4's, there was an instructor who had flown Mustangs during WWII, my WO was an ex Air Gunner on Lancs and the Flight Eng on the BofB flight Lanc was actually a Flight Eng on Lancs during the war. Different people, different ethos, different times.
As to how it's changed since '74. Well, several things spring to mind. Flying the Lossie station volleyball team in a Shack down south for a match, a jock on Harriers in Germany nipping home to UK in a GR3 one weekend to buy a house, putting on a VC10 for me and three colleagues who needed to get from Brize to Luton in superquick time. The bean counters hadn't been invented then and Things Got Done No Questions.
The people were different too. On my first unit which was F4's, there was an instructor who had flown Mustangs during WWII, my WO was an ex Air Gunner on Lancs and the Flight Eng on the BofB flight Lanc was actually a Flight Eng on Lancs during the war. Different people, different ethos, different times.
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Yes Williard, I was interested in how he perceived things had changed, thank you for telling me thing, I appreciate your answer.
thing,
A huge amount has indeed changed in the 40 years since you joined. But when you joined, how much time did you devote to worrying about how the RAF had changed since 1934?
"It's all gone downhill since they brought in jet engines, used to be a sooty could strip and rebuild an entire engine in 2 days, with just one screwdriver and 2 spanners. As for the social life, since they let TVs into the Mess, the bar's empty. What was wrong with the weekly Clark Gable film projected onto a bed sheet hung on the outside wall? And who allowed airmen to own their own vehicles?!!"
I'm genuinely not trying to be rude, but this website is too often filled with laments for times past, viewed firmly through rose-coloured (or whisky) glasses. I have no doubt that in 1974 there were plenty of retirees moaning about the state of the RAF, the only difference was that they were doing their moaning in the confines of the RAFA club and those serving didn't have to hear them!
A huge amount has indeed changed in the 40 years since you joined. But when you joined, how much time did you devote to worrying about how the RAF had changed since 1934?
"It's all gone downhill since they brought in jet engines, used to be a sooty could strip and rebuild an entire engine in 2 days, with just one screwdriver and 2 spanners. As for the social life, since they let TVs into the Mess, the bar's empty. What was wrong with the weekly Clark Gable film projected onto a bed sheet hung on the outside wall? And who allowed airmen to own their own vehicles?!!"
I'm genuinely not trying to be rude, but this website is too often filled with laments for times past, viewed firmly through rose-coloured (or whisky) glasses. I have no doubt that in 1974 there were plenty of retirees moaning about the state of the RAF, the only difference was that they were doing their moaning in the confines of the RAFA club and those serving didn't have to hear them!
RLE,
I have just re-read thing's posts. Can't spot a moan anywhere, he's just pointing out how many things have changed over the past 40 years - granted, most of them for the worst!
I have just re-read thing's posts. Can't spot a moan anywhere, he's just pointing out how many things have changed over the past 40 years - granted, most of them for the worst!