Air Cadets grounded?
Well, I think we can all agree that (with a nod to today's date) this has definitely not been "Our Finest Pause" - although I suspect it may well be the longest!
Rocket2 - you mean the shiny new Skylaunch winches that had to be re-engined with diesels (no doubt at vast expense) because installing LPG tanks at VGS sites was not acceptable? Dohhh!
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@Cpl Clott
The issue is the same as last time. Schleicher can't do the volume. That is approx 3 - 4 years production for them. They were not willing to do it last time and certainly won't do it now (several reasons, some logistical, some political and some commercial). There is plenty about this on the Air Cadet Gliding Thread <<6 Vanguards (ASK-21) as I remember at 618VGS - we got all the K21's eventually apart from 2 which remained at Syerston. I always thought Catterick was small to operate the K21 on the eagle winch but West Malling was a fantastic site for the Air Cadet Operation, hard surfaces, large grass areas, big hangars, unobstructed approaches, uncontrolled airspace, no other major airfield users - no wonder they built all over it (wuckfits !!)
Personally I thought that the K21 and the current Grobs were chalk and cheese - the K21 was a fantastic aeroplane all round and the Grob a real plastic pig. Heavy controls, not enough rudder, ran out of elevator quickly with a heavy front cockpit load and insufficient rear trim. No suprise that Grob could deliver so many so quickly - they had a bundle of them sat on the shelf because the Germans did not want them........... and they know a thing or two about sailplanes.................. :-) - IIRC Group Captain J*** D******** was the agent for Grob at the time and may have been a powerful lobbyist
I always thought it was a shame Slingsby did not licence build the K21 like they did the T61 - that would have made production and delivery much faster. I was told that Schleicher would not lend out moulds anymore though becuase they had been stung by Centrair building the Pegasus 101 from ASW19 moulds and either undercutting prices or not paying licencing fees (can't remember which) - although that might just be rumour
Arc>> http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...-glass-11.html
With regard to the Falke I agree it would be perfect but the decision to move away from Rag and Tube aeroplanes was made nearly 30 years ago by ACCGS.
I can't see them going back - despite the benefits from a maintenance perspective for the type of operation they run. High volumes of cheaper aeroplanes and low complexity technology is much better than fewer, expensive and higher spec IMHO.............. but there you go
What is all this about Skylaunch winches ? - are the Van Gelders being replaced ??
Arc
The issue is the same as last time. Schleicher can't do the volume. That is approx 3 - 4 years production for them. They were not willing to do it last time and certainly won't do it now (several reasons, some logistical, some political and some commercial). There is plenty about this on the Air Cadet Gliding Thread <<6 Vanguards (ASK-21) as I remember at 618VGS - we got all the K21's eventually apart from 2 which remained at Syerston. I always thought Catterick was small to operate the K21 on the eagle winch but West Malling was a fantastic site for the Air Cadet Operation, hard surfaces, large grass areas, big hangars, unobstructed approaches, uncontrolled airspace, no other major airfield users - no wonder they built all over it (wuckfits !!)
Personally I thought that the K21 and the current Grobs were chalk and cheese - the K21 was a fantastic aeroplane all round and the Grob a real plastic pig. Heavy controls, not enough rudder, ran out of elevator quickly with a heavy front cockpit load and insufficient rear trim. No suprise that Grob could deliver so many so quickly - they had a bundle of them sat on the shelf because the Germans did not want them........... and they know a thing or two about sailplanes.................. :-) - IIRC Group Captain J*** D******** was the agent for Grob at the time and may have been a powerful lobbyist
I always thought it was a shame Slingsby did not licence build the K21 like they did the T61 - that would have made production and delivery much faster. I was told that Schleicher would not lend out moulds anymore though becuase they had been stung by Centrair building the Pegasus 101 from ASW19 moulds and either undercutting prices or not paying licencing fees (can't remember which) - although that might just be rumour
Arc>> http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...-glass-11.html
With regard to the Falke I agree it would be perfect but the decision to move away from Rag and Tube aeroplanes was made nearly 30 years ago by ACCGS.
I can't see them going back - despite the benefits from a maintenance perspective for the type of operation they run. High volumes of cheaper aeroplanes and low complexity technology is much better than fewer, expensive and higher spec IMHO.............. but there you go
What is all this about Skylaunch winches ? - are the Van Gelders being replaced ??
Arc
Skylaunch Latest News
Its a shame they are re-engining them with diesels as the LPG engined Skylaunches are so easy and responsive to drive.
Diesel is, however, a much more benign fuel from a filling and storage point of view, particularly if cadets get involved in filling, and most operational stations will have a supply of red diesel anyway.
Its a shame they are re-engining them with diesels as the LPG engined Skylaunches are so easy and responsive to drive.
Diesel is, however, a much more benign fuel from a filling and storage point of view, particularly if cadets get involved in filling, and most operational stations will have a supply of red diesel anyway.
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What was wrong with the Van Gelder then ??
I always found it superb. And 6 drums more than adequate.
I assume this mean 3 per school of these. I can see some benefit. If 1 is U/S then the others are OK whereas if the Van Gelder was U/S it was game over, and these will be easier to tow.............
I think the Diesel decision is a general decision for the vehicle fleet across MoD, cheaper and easier.
Arc
I always found it superb. And 6 drums more than adequate.
I assume this mean 3 per school of these. I can see some benefit. If 1 is U/S then the others are OK whereas if the Van Gelder was U/S it was game over, and these will be easier to tow.............
I think the Diesel decision is a general decision for the vehicle fleet across MoD, cheaper and easier.
Arc
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Hi Arc
Thanks for the comprehensive reply. So in 3-4 years we could have better gliders and we've wasted nearly half that time on what sounds like a p!ss-poor glider in the first place? Sounds like another scr3w up then. We could, on your numbers, have at least half our conventional VGSs flying by now with 'Vanguards' if we had not bothered with the Vikings and 'cut our losses' back in Apr 14. I understand, talking to one of those who has been working on the Vikings, that they are with 2 sub-contractors and have been for several months. He told some stories of the discovery of non-documented glass-fibre repairs in fuselages and wing leading edges that need to be done all over again and then properly recorded. If that is the case then it is hardly surprising that it's taking so long to do a fleet of 80+ aircraft.
Furthermore, of the 60-odd Vigilants, we could probably have replaced 27 (estimating 1.5 Falkes per month from the factory) - or just under 50%. Modern coverings on these are far better than that of the Venture. It also has conventional sprung gear rather than the old mono-wheel.
If we had done this then we would have half the VGSs flying again and they would be 'future proofed' in not needing new engines for the motorgliders.
Still, too late now. This 'pause' is not our finest hour...
CPL Clott
Thanks for the comprehensive reply. So in 3-4 years we could have better gliders and we've wasted nearly half that time on what sounds like a p!ss-poor glider in the first place? Sounds like another scr3w up then. We could, on your numbers, have at least half our conventional VGSs flying by now with 'Vanguards' if we had not bothered with the Vikings and 'cut our losses' back in Apr 14. I understand, talking to one of those who has been working on the Vikings, that they are with 2 sub-contractors and have been for several months. He told some stories of the discovery of non-documented glass-fibre repairs in fuselages and wing leading edges that need to be done all over again and then properly recorded. If that is the case then it is hardly surprising that it's taking so long to do a fleet of 80+ aircraft.
Furthermore, of the 60-odd Vigilants, we could probably have replaced 27 (estimating 1.5 Falkes per month from the factory) - or just under 50%. Modern coverings on these are far better than that of the Venture. It also has conventional sprung gear rather than the old mono-wheel.
If we had done this then we would have half the VGSs flying again and they would be 'future proofed' in not needing new engines for the motorgliders.
Still, too late now. This 'pause' is not our finest hour...
CPL Clott
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Cpl Clott,
Not everyone agrees with Arc's analysis of the two gliders. I have flown and instructed on both types in both the Air Cadets and with BGA clubs and each has its own good points and bad points.
Rather than get into a pissing contest over this it would be best to just say the Vanguard (K21) has better rudder/aileron co-ordination in the front cockpit and the Viking (Grob 103 Acro) is much better in the rear cockpit.
That probably equates to the Vanguard being better for training but I never had any problems with students in either aircraft. The whole thing is academic anyway since Schleicher refused to have anything to do with supplying the 100 aircraft needed by the Air Cadets.
ACW
Not everyone agrees with Arc's analysis of the two gliders. I have flown and instructed on both types in both the Air Cadets and with BGA clubs and each has its own good points and bad points.
Rather than get into a pissing contest over this it would be best to just say the Vanguard (K21) has better rudder/aileron co-ordination in the front cockpit and the Viking (Grob 103 Acro) is much better in the rear cockpit.
That probably equates to the Vanguard being better for training but I never had any problems with students in either aircraft. The whole thing is academic anyway since Schleicher refused to have anything to do with supplying the 100 aircraft needed by the Air Cadets.
ACW
Mechta
LPG is a darned site easier to store unless the military HSE gophers get involved. Go to any house, petrol station or even a civvy gliding club that uses it, no bunding or 6 ft protective fences required, doesn't matter if you "spill" some & is perfectly safe to use so long as you take basic precautions. Its cheaper & gives a far better launch that any diesel powered winch - I suspect the engines last longer too rather than the smoky turbo charged diesel versions.
Cheers
R2
LPG is a darned site easier to store unless the military HSE gophers get involved. Go to any house, petrol station or even a civvy gliding club that uses it, no bunding or 6 ft protective fences required, doesn't matter if you "spill" some & is perfectly safe to use so long as you take basic precautions. Its cheaper & gives a far better launch that any diesel powered winch - I suspect the engines last longer too rather than the smoky turbo charged diesel versions.
Cheers
R2
R2,
Yes we all know that!
However, as in every other procurement case in recent history, the MoD decides that off-the-shelf purchase of a proven product is simply not acceptable - in this case LPG storage was the issue. (What issue?)
So the proven spec is b*ggered about with, the supplier adds significant additional cost and we - the taxpayers - end up paying way over the odds for a non-standard piece of kit that performs worse than the original.
What makes this case even more laughable is that all these new Skylaunch winches have nothing to launch because of yet another MoD f*ck up.
Never mind, those young air cadets that can't glide can go along to Wittering at the weekend for some AEF flying: not! Sorry, I forgot, the feckwits that moved all the flying units from Wyton failed to resource the air traffic organisation so that the Wittering could open at weekends, so a fleet of Tutors stands idle!
You really couldn't script it!
Yes we all know that!
However, as in every other procurement case in recent history, the MoD decides that off-the-shelf purchase of a proven product is simply not acceptable - in this case LPG storage was the issue. (What issue?)
So the proven spec is b*ggered about with, the supplier adds significant additional cost and we - the taxpayers - end up paying way over the odds for a non-standard piece of kit that performs worse than the original.
What makes this case even more laughable is that all these new Skylaunch winches have nothing to launch because of yet another MoD f*ck up.
Never mind, those young air cadets that can't glide can go along to Wittering at the weekend for some AEF flying: not! Sorry, I forgot, the feckwits that moved all the flying units from Wyton failed to resource the air traffic organisation so that the Wittering could open at weekends, so a fleet of Tutors stands idle!
You really couldn't script it!
R2, I do drive an LPG Skylaunch most weekends (and fill it when necessary). I agree that they give good launches and having driven a Supacat diesel winch as well must say I prefer the Skylaunch.
The MOD has had a policy for quite a few years of moving towards diesel/JP-8 fuels only, even the Royal Marines 'Rigid Raiders' use diesel outboards. The principle exceptions to this being training aircraft i.e. Tutors and Vigilants. Bringing in another diesel winch is a relatively simple matter, whereas an LPG one needs the infrastructure and all the HSE ball-ache that goes with it. In the post Haddon-Cave world, that would be a lot of extra work for each location.
One more thing; if the LPG storage tank is empty and someone forgets to order any, no-one glides at the weekend. If the tank is empty on a diesel winch, you could always fill it from jerry cans.
The MOD has had a policy for quite a few years of moving towards diesel/JP-8 fuels only, even the Royal Marines 'Rigid Raiders' use diesel outboards. The principle exceptions to this being training aircraft i.e. Tutors and Vigilants. Bringing in another diesel winch is a relatively simple matter, whereas an LPG one needs the infrastructure and all the HSE ball-ache that goes with it. In the post Haddon-Cave world, that would be a lot of extra work for each location.
One more thing; if the LPG storage tank is empty and someone forgets to order any, no-one glides at the weekend. If the tank is empty on a diesel winch, you could always fill it from jerry cans.
Trappers!!
....and I wonder what the trappers are doing with themselves? There are so many times you can rewrite the training manuals and the VGS's must be fed up with admin checks!!
...and how do the trappers keep current?
Oh well, I expect someone is due for a posting soon, so the problem will be somebody else's to sort out
A VERY sad débacle (definition: A sudden and ignominious failure; a fiasco) for the Air Cadet organisation, and one I fear that will change this fantastic organisation for many years to come.
Venture, Adventure!!
...and how do the trappers keep current?
Oh well, I expect someone is due for a posting soon, so the problem will be somebody else's to sort out
A VERY sad débacle (definition: A sudden and ignominious failure; a fiasco) for the Air Cadet organisation, and one I fear that will change this fantastic organisation for many years to come.
Venture, Adventure!!
Last edited by Frelon; 17th Sep 2015 at 08:10. Reason: speeling!
"What makes this case even more laughable is that all these new Skylaunch winches have nothing to launch because of yet another MoD f*ck up."
I know what you mean 1.3. For a while I thought that this whole sorry affair was reminiscent of a Marx Brothers caper, but it is now beyond parody. Even David Brent and Basil Fawlty could've done a better job.
I know what you mean 1.3. For a while I thought that this whole sorry affair was reminiscent of a Marx Brothers caper, but it is now beyond parody. Even David Brent and Basil Fawlty could've done a better job.
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ACW418
Sorry if I sounded super critical of the Viking. It's done sterling work for the VGS. I just personally felt that the Vanguard (K21) was better at the task (having operated both on a VGS) of teaching cadets.
I'd have to say the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The K21 is still in production in largely its original form - the 103 (having gone through several iterations) is not.
Personally I always felt that the K13 was the glider the ATC should have brought - but don't get me started on that !!
And I think the Canadian Air Cadets are still using their original Schweitzer 2-33's from the 1960's !!
I just wish the fiasco could be sorted and everyone back to work.
Regards
Arc
Sorry if I sounded super critical of the Viking. It's done sterling work for the VGS. I just personally felt that the Vanguard (K21) was better at the task (having operated both on a VGS) of teaching cadets.
I'd have to say the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The K21 is still in production in largely its original form - the 103 (having gone through several iterations) is not.
Personally I always felt that the K13 was the glider the ATC should have brought - but don't get me started on that !!
And I think the Canadian Air Cadets are still using their original Schweitzer 2-33's from the 1960's !!
I just wish the fiasco could be sorted and everyone back to work.
Regards
Arc
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DaveUnwin
You shoud understand that there are now a number of gliders that would be condsidered ready to fly from a mecanical point of view however in a post Haddon-cave enviroment the paperwork culture is very cautious and parts certification issues are a problem as the military has to get to grips with the way the gilder manufactures release servicable parts to service under EASA.
it is rather a pitty that the gliders are not on the civil register (as are the Grob Tutors,) f they were the whole thing would fall under EASA 145 oversight and not have the complication of a foot in both certification camps when it comes to parts supply.
This is one of the few times I have ever seen when EASA oversight would remove complication.
it is rather a pitty that the gliders are not on the civil register (as are the Grob Tutors,) f they were the whole thing would fall under EASA 145 oversight and not have the complication of a foot in both certification camps when it comes to parts supply.
This is one of the few times I have ever seen when EASA oversight would remove complication.
A & C I do understand that. As someone who has managed a gliding club, I also understand the frustrations of many on here.
To recap the situation as I understand it - more than 18 months ago gliders that were serviceable on the day they were grounded, were grounded.
18 months later, these gliders are still not serviceable.
In a nutshell, is that - or is that not - a reasonable precis of the situation?
To recap the situation as I understand it - more than 18 months ago gliders that were serviceable on the day they were grounded, were grounded.
18 months later, these gliders are still not serviceable.
In a nutshell, is that - or is that not - a reasonable precis of the situation?
"Did Schleicher not want to build 100 K21s full stop, or 100 K21s with mucked around specs?" I know what you means Cats5 - as Schleicher are in the glider building game to make money it could only have been the latter!