AAC Manning Crisis
GBZ
If you are still serving, I suggest you seek out some SH mates and ask them about their way of life. I spent a great deal of time under canvas, occasionally had the luxury of a disused hangar and from time to time Hotel Boeing was my bed for the night. I joined to support the Army.....the infanteer is a hero of mine and I could never do what he does but I was delighted to take him where he needed to be...and bring him back. My conditions were nothing like what he had to put with but I certainly haven't led the Life of Riley you suggest. BTW, I never minded the accommodation, it was all the unnecessary sh1t that my own commanders invented that made my life a misery!
If you are still serving, I suggest you seek out some SH mates and ask them about their way of life. I spent a great deal of time under canvas, occasionally had the luxury of a disused hangar and from time to time Hotel Boeing was my bed for the night. I joined to support the Army.....the infanteer is a hero of mine and I could never do what he does but I was delighted to take him where he needed to be...and bring him back. My conditions were nothing like what he had to put with but I certainly haven't led the Life of Riley you suggest. BTW, I never minded the accommodation, it was all the unnecessary sh1t that my own commanders invented that made my life a misery!
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To return to the original point, the AAC's heavy outflow of helicopter pilots is inevitable given the nature of the beast. Unlike the RAF and RN, the Army does not need officers for the majority of its drivers airframe slots. They are therefore taken by very bright and competent young SNCOs.
Whereas an officer pilot can expect and aspire to a full and rewarding career on return to regimental duty after a flying tour, this is not the case with most SNCO pilots. After commanding an aircraft and operating on an equal professional footing with senior officers, it is not an attractive prospect to become a grunt again and lose flying pay. Therefore, most who cannot transfer to permanent AAC or who are not considered suitable for commissioning in their own regiments will leave and look for a rewarding job in civvy aviation.
Even if a SNCO transfers to AAC permanent cadre, there is very limited scope for career advancement so when the embuggerances outweigh the attractions they will leave for greener fields.
If the Army wants to retain these highly skilled pilots it needs to rethink their career options, Ts and Cs and rewards, especially flying pay. These will not necessarily resemble those of the RAF and RN equivalents, because they are not equivalent.
Whereas an officer pilot can expect and aspire to a full and rewarding career on return to regimental duty after a flying tour, this is not the case with most SNCO pilots. After commanding an aircraft and operating on an equal professional footing with senior officers, it is not an attractive prospect to become a grunt again and lose flying pay. Therefore, most who cannot transfer to permanent AAC or who are not considered suitable for commissioning in their own regiments will leave and look for a rewarding job in civvy aviation.
Even if a SNCO transfers to AAC permanent cadre, there is very limited scope for career advancement so when the embuggerances outweigh the attractions they will leave for greener fields.
If the Army wants to retain these highly skilled pilots it needs to rethink their career options, Ts and Cs and rewards, especially flying pay. These will not necessarily resemble those of the RAF and RN equivalents, because they are not equivalent.
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Genstabler,
While I agree with the majority of your post I'm not sure of your recent experience with the AAC. SNCO pilots do not (and have not for quite some time) go back to their original Corps or Regiments after a tour with the AAC. On completion of CTT on whichever aircraft type they are automatically re-badged to the AAC and therefore have a full career - that is not the reason why it is haemorrhaging SNCO aircrew.
I feel I can speak with a little authority on this subject because I have very recently left the Corps as a WO2 A2 QHI on Apache after 24 years in the Army (16 of those with the AAC) and I have seen monumental changes in the organisation, professionalism and ethos of the Corps and I have to say I do not regret one minute of my time in the Mob. Those RAF and RN who have worked alongside us will hopefully agree that the days of the Officer's Flying Club are long past.
Those that have not worked with us seem (from what I can see) to still see us a Souix pilots from the 1960s!! I went through my pilot course with RAF and RN and this theme of jointery has continued throughout my career with little room for willy waving - I respect the other two services immensely and hope that respect and affection is mutual.
The notion that the RAF and RN are the only people who understand aviation battle space (as touted by some on this forum) is a condescending nonsense - I would wager that you're average AH pilot has a thorough understanding of airspace and has spent considerably longer in the overhead supporting the troops on the ground in Afghanistan and delivered more ordnance than your average fast jet pilot. This is not "arrogance" "boasting" or "willy waving" (and is not meant as such) but a simple fact. Even on a quiet tour of Herrick most crews can expect to engage the enemy on a regular basis (sometimes even daily). This is without taking into account the "classic" warfighting role of the Apache (intergration with fast air, SH, airspace, deep strikes, EW etc etc) which is the "bread and butter" of Army Aviation not to mention the assymetric hybrid operations such as Ellamy. If you think I'm being defensive then if you saw your colleagues denigrated in the manner I see so often on PPrune then I suspect it would not sit well with you either?
The proposed flying pay clawback has completely destroyed the trust that my generation of pilots had in the system and the Corps has essentially shot itself in the foot. Those that can leave are leaving, those that are time barred will probably leave as soon as they are able. As I mentioned in my previous post this is not the only reason for people leaving but the straw that broke the camel's back for most. When you are in your 40s and have a family, mortgage, children et al to worry being hit with a huge debt when you have done no wrong and the system is so complex and flawed that they are still trying to sort it 18 months after the initial (incorrect) assumptions does not encourage people to stay.
Add to this poor promotion prospects (compared to our Groundcrew, REME and former colleagues in other Corps), extremely poor career management (for the most part - there are exceptions), changes to terms and conditions with little or no explanation or justification, a fundamental lack of respect for abilities and experience and (until very recently) constant deployment cycle it's not difficult to see why some have had enough and are happy to go elsewhere.
The majority of my peers agree that they have never seen it so bad - the problem for the Corps is that my peers ARE the experience and the enablers (QHIs, AIs, Wpns Officers etc). The younger SNCOs are seeing what is happening and many of them are leaving too - for them there is no bridging but changes to pensions and the prospect of slow promotion, non-operational old school living under a basha soldiering which quite frankly many of them are not up for anymore.
I am fiercely proud of my friends and colleagues that remain in the Corps but I am disgusted by the way they are treated and I fervently hope that things change for the better and soon. I'm also acutely aware that we are not the only Force to have these problems.
I can only speak from the experience of me and my SNCO friends - I have not even touched on the reasons for the Officer Corps leaving in droves either.....
While I agree with the majority of your post I'm not sure of your recent experience with the AAC. SNCO pilots do not (and have not for quite some time) go back to their original Corps or Regiments after a tour with the AAC. On completion of CTT on whichever aircraft type they are automatically re-badged to the AAC and therefore have a full career - that is not the reason why it is haemorrhaging SNCO aircrew.
I feel I can speak with a little authority on this subject because I have very recently left the Corps as a WO2 A2 QHI on Apache after 24 years in the Army (16 of those with the AAC) and I have seen monumental changes in the organisation, professionalism and ethos of the Corps and I have to say I do not regret one minute of my time in the Mob. Those RAF and RN who have worked alongside us will hopefully agree that the days of the Officer's Flying Club are long past.
Those that have not worked with us seem (from what I can see) to still see us a Souix pilots from the 1960s!! I went through my pilot course with RAF and RN and this theme of jointery has continued throughout my career with little room for willy waving - I respect the other two services immensely and hope that respect and affection is mutual.
The notion that the RAF and RN are the only people who understand aviation battle space (as touted by some on this forum) is a condescending nonsense - I would wager that you're average AH pilot has a thorough understanding of airspace and has spent considerably longer in the overhead supporting the troops on the ground in Afghanistan and delivered more ordnance than your average fast jet pilot. This is not "arrogance" "boasting" or "willy waving" (and is not meant as such) but a simple fact. Even on a quiet tour of Herrick most crews can expect to engage the enemy on a regular basis (sometimes even daily). This is without taking into account the "classic" warfighting role of the Apache (intergration with fast air, SH, airspace, deep strikes, EW etc etc) which is the "bread and butter" of Army Aviation not to mention the assymetric hybrid operations such as Ellamy. If you think I'm being defensive then if you saw your colleagues denigrated in the manner I see so often on PPrune then I suspect it would not sit well with you either?
The proposed flying pay clawback has completely destroyed the trust that my generation of pilots had in the system and the Corps has essentially shot itself in the foot. Those that can leave are leaving, those that are time barred will probably leave as soon as they are able. As I mentioned in my previous post this is not the only reason for people leaving but the straw that broke the camel's back for most. When you are in your 40s and have a family, mortgage, children et al to worry being hit with a huge debt when you have done no wrong and the system is so complex and flawed that they are still trying to sort it 18 months after the initial (incorrect) assumptions does not encourage people to stay.
Add to this poor promotion prospects (compared to our Groundcrew, REME and former colleagues in other Corps), extremely poor career management (for the most part - there are exceptions), changes to terms and conditions with little or no explanation or justification, a fundamental lack of respect for abilities and experience and (until very recently) constant deployment cycle it's not difficult to see why some have had enough and are happy to go elsewhere.
The majority of my peers agree that they have never seen it so bad - the problem for the Corps is that my peers ARE the experience and the enablers (QHIs, AIs, Wpns Officers etc). The younger SNCOs are seeing what is happening and many of them are leaving too - for them there is no bridging but changes to pensions and the prospect of slow promotion, non-operational old school living under a basha soldiering which quite frankly many of them are not up for anymore.
I am fiercely proud of my friends and colleagues that remain in the Corps but I am disgusted by the way they are treated and I fervently hope that things change for the better and soon. I'm also acutely aware that we are not the only Force to have these problems.
I can only speak from the experience of me and my SNCO friends - I have not even touched on the reasons for the Officer Corps leaving in droves either.....
Last edited by The Cryptkeeper; 7th Apr 2014 at 12:13.
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As someone who is currently looking to explore the NCO pilot route in the near future this does make for a bit of concerning reading.
In short, could someone give me a rundown as to what has happened to flying pay for AAC pilots?
In short, could someone give me a rundown as to what has happened to flying pay for AAC pilots?
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Cryptkeeper
Thanks for putting me right with your excellent, balanced and informative post. You are right in assuming my experience is out of date. Though I still have many AAC friends, I am now well behind the power curve.
It is a sad state of affairs and it is difficult to understand how it was allowed to come about. Massively incompetent management and leadership that is destroying an outstandingly professional and effective organisation. Betrayal is not too strong a word.
Best wishes for your new life!
Thanks for putting me right with your excellent, balanced and informative post. You are right in assuming my experience is out of date. Though I still have many AAC friends, I am now well behind the power curve.
It is a sad state of affairs and it is difficult to understand how it was allowed to come about. Massively incompetent management and leadership that is destroying an outstandingly professional and effective organisation. Betrayal is not too strong a word.
Best wishes for your new life!
BBC thinks the RAF have taken them over already:
BBC News - RAF Apache helicopter makes emergency landing in Maryculter field
BBC News - RAF Apache helicopter makes emergency landing in Maryculter field
An RAF Apache helicopter has been forced to make an emergency landing on the outskirts of Aberdeen.
Aberdeen International Airport was put on full alert, but the helicopter landed in a field near Maryculter.
The two people on board the helicopter escaped injury.
The Apache had been taking part in Nato's Operation Joint Warrior training exercise.
Aberdeen International Airport was put on full alert, but the helicopter landed in a field near Maryculter.
The two people on board the helicopter escaped injury.
The Apache had been taking part in Nato's Operation Joint Warrior training exercise.
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Correction!
BBC News - Army Apache helicopter makes emergency landing in Maryculter field
BBC must have heard the cries of outrage!!
BBC must have heard the cries of outrage!!
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BBC thinks the RAF have taken them over already:
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very bright and competent young SNCOs.
This charming, delightful and skilful pilot was a Corporal - from the Catering Corps!
I have oft wondered which potentially lucrative career path he chose to follow in Civvy Street.
Speaking as a recently promoted civvy, who spent 23 years in the light blue, mainly on the Chinook Force, I have nothing but praise for the AAC who I think have been treated appallingly; not in a way they deserve at all.
I remember trying to get into Nad Ali with an urgent re-supply in very low light and poor weather when the EF decided we needed some 7.62 hasteners. All of a sudden the AH escorting us 'Christmas Tree'd' over the green zone to draw their fire whilst we got on the ground. Muchos respect.
Regardless of background, cap badge or platform - the AAC deserve a better deal.
I remember trying to get into Nad Ali with an urgent re-supply in very low light and poor weather when the EF decided we needed some 7.62 hasteners. All of a sudden the AH escorting us 'Christmas Tree'd' over the green zone to draw their fire whilst we got on the ground. Muchos respect.
Regardless of background, cap badge or platform - the AAC deserve a better deal.
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Ballykelly to Aldergrove by Sioux. Must have been about at the limit of its range! What fun flying though. Handed over to 666 at Topcliffe. Good lot. Happy memories (sigh)!
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In a nutshell:
Army Flying pay of the 90s and early 00s was a complex beast (Crewmen, P1, P2, the 4 year rule etc etc) very different to the other services mainly due to the fact we had JNCO pilots and crewmen. It was also open to interpretation for whichever pay clerk was dealing it at the time.
So, for example, a Cpl crewman who had achieved 2nd tour crewman flying pay who then qualified as a pilot would go onto 2nd tour P2 pay and progress through the increments, then on qualification as an Ac Comd he would then go onto P1.
P2 was scrapped back in 2001 and so an even larger disparity arose between guys who had potentially qualified and served at exactly the same time but would be on different rates of Flying Pay according to how the rules had been interpreted at his/her unit.
Fast forward to the advent of JPA and everything was supposed to have equalled out with some people even marking time on rates of pay before progressing. This happened for some but not others.
Fast forward to October 2012 (post service complaints from those disgruntled that their peers were still ahead of them on FP) - AAC initiates investigation, further misinterprets all the different interpretations of the "rules" and decides that the vast majority of aircrew who qualified in the 90s and early 00s had been overpaid and a potential clawback was announced. This ranged anywhere from £2000 to ..... wait for it..... £38,000 for one unfortunate individual.
The investigating team had incorrectly calculated the debts and those amounts have increased, decreased, increased again, are inclusive of tax, are not inclusive of tax.
Hey presto - vast majority of SNCO and Officers from that era alienated and then told to lump it. The rest as they say, is history.
And it's only very recently have they realised the scale of the disaster - a relatively minor amount of money to recover from a group where no fraud has been committed but who cost a very large amount of money to train and will be quite difficult (in the short term) to replace.
This is the short version.
Army Flying pay of the 90s and early 00s was a complex beast (Crewmen, P1, P2, the 4 year rule etc etc) very different to the other services mainly due to the fact we had JNCO pilots and crewmen. It was also open to interpretation for whichever pay clerk was dealing it at the time.
So, for example, a Cpl crewman who had achieved 2nd tour crewman flying pay who then qualified as a pilot would go onto 2nd tour P2 pay and progress through the increments, then on qualification as an Ac Comd he would then go onto P1.
P2 was scrapped back in 2001 and so an even larger disparity arose between guys who had potentially qualified and served at exactly the same time but would be on different rates of Flying Pay according to how the rules had been interpreted at his/her unit.
Fast forward to the advent of JPA and everything was supposed to have equalled out with some people even marking time on rates of pay before progressing. This happened for some but not others.
Fast forward to October 2012 (post service complaints from those disgruntled that their peers were still ahead of them on FP) - AAC initiates investigation, further misinterprets all the different interpretations of the "rules" and decides that the vast majority of aircrew who qualified in the 90s and early 00s had been overpaid and a potential clawback was announced. This ranged anywhere from £2000 to ..... wait for it..... £38,000 for one unfortunate individual.
The investigating team had incorrectly calculated the debts and those amounts have increased, decreased, increased again, are inclusive of tax, are not inclusive of tax.
Hey presto - vast majority of SNCO and Officers from that era alienated and then told to lump it. The rest as they say, is history.
And it's only very recently have they realised the scale of the disaster - a relatively minor amount of money to recover from a group where no fraud has been committed but who cost a very large amount of money to train and will be quite difficult (in the short term) to replace.
This is the short version.
Sadly the advice came in some cases from Staff Officers who had been in receipt of full 3rd rate flying pay but not flown for 20 years! So what did they know.
Home goal I'm afraid.
Home goal I'm afraid.
Gentleman Aviator
The notion that the RAF and RN are the only people who understand aviation battle space (as touted by some on this forum) is a condescending nonsense
So when - ineveitably - fiscal push comes to financial shove post Afghan drawdown, an Admiral will usually favour something that floats (or sinks!) over something that flies, while a General may tend to favour something on the ground over something in the air when scarce resources are being allocated.
Until recently, we light blue had a comparable problem, in that something fast, noisy and pointed would always win over slow, noisy and rotary! With our current very senior management, that may of course change.
We will soon see ..........
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Teetering head posted:
"Cryptkeeper - I absolutely agree. My take is that the problem the other services may have - particularly Army - is a lack of flying background at the very highest levels".
"Cryptkeeper - I absolutely agree. My take is that the problem the other services may have - particularly Army - is a lack of flying background at the very highest levels".
Last edited by Genstabler; 7th Apr 2014 at 18:27.