Instrument approach question - one for the IREs!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Lyneham
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Instrument approach question - one for the IREs!
I have a quick question that I hope someone can help with.
I was flying an approach in the sim the other day where the STAR put you into the Approach at 90 degrees to the initial approach fix and hold.
I always thought you had to do a positioning hold if you were outside 30 degrees of the outbound but can't find where that's written down.
Is this still the case or, with modern kit, can you let the kit turn you direct outbound? If so, where is this written?
Thanks in advance for your help
I was flying an approach in the sim the other day where the STAR put you into the Approach at 90 degrees to the initial approach fix and hold.
I always thought you had to do a positioning hold if you were outside 30 degrees of the outbound but can't find where that's written down.
Is this still the case or, with modern kit, can you let the kit turn you direct outbound? If so, where is this written?
Thanks in advance for your help
Champagne anyone...?
Do you mean that the approach had a hold published, aligned with the ILS, based on the Intermediate fix? If so, and without actually looking at the chart (which approach is it and where?) I'd suggest that the hold exists either as part of alternate approach (e.g. with an Initial Approach Fix over the airfield - proceed outbound, join the hold, extend the outbound leg, turn in to join the ILS) or it exists to allow height to be lost before joining the ILS (unlikely).
If the approach is a STAR onto an ILS and, assuming the STAR puts you at the correct altitude then there will be a lead radial to turn you onto the ILS before you hit the fix. If it's purely an NDB then you'd need to fly over the NDB and fly the join before passing overhead the NDB to commence the approach. Without DME, flying overhead the NDB is the only way to positively fix your position on the approach.
The requirement to be within 30 degrees of the outbound exists only if the approach you're flying is based on the same facility as the hold is.
RNAV approaches often have two 90 degree offset lead in's to the Intermediate Fix.
If the approach is a STAR onto an ILS and, assuming the STAR puts you at the correct altitude then there will be a lead radial to turn you onto the ILS before you hit the fix. If it's purely an NDB then you'd need to fly over the NDB and fly the join before passing overhead the NDB to commence the approach. Without DME, flying overhead the NDB is the only way to positively fix your position on the approach.
The requirement to be within 30 degrees of the outbound exists only if the approach you're flying is based on the same facility as the hold is.
RNAV approaches often have two 90 degree offset lead in's to the Intermediate Fix.
Last edited by StopStart; 27th Feb 2014 at 14:22.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Lyneham
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, for instance, if I do the SOTUK 3T arrival at LETO (Madrid Torrejon) to carry out the ILS Z rwy 23, do I need to position in the DUKKE hold to be within 30 degrees of the outbound or can I turn direct outbound?
Champagne anyone...?
No, there is no need to hold at DUKKE. DUKKE is based on the RBO 134/21 and is not a facility itself. Therefore, if cleared the STAR into the approach you'd proceed to DUKKE, turn straight out bound to intercept the VOR radial north-westbound towards RBO, descending to 5000ft. Passing the 055 VJZ radial you'd commence your turn onto the ILS. Once established inbound you could descend to your platform of 3600ft/fettle your VS to CDA onto the GS.
Sorry, I'm using an older version of the plates I found online - I don't have a NAVTECH login. Alts and radials may be a bit off.
Sorry, I'm using an older version of the plates I found online - I don't have a NAVTECH login. Alts and radials may be a bit off.
Agreed - in part!
After Perales, DUKKE is the IAF and you only need to hold if directed - in which case it'd be a Direct join. Otherwise, after DUKKE (assuming flyover mandatory), as Stoppers said, intercept and follow the 134 radial towards Robledillo, thence the procedure.
But not below 6000 ft until after the next turn, once established on the 045 radial inbound to Torrejon and inside 19.0 DME from VTZ.
(Ref is Torrejon ILS Z RW23 dated 6 Feb 14 AIRAC AMDT 14/13)
After Perales, DUKKE is the IAF and you only need to hold if directed - in which case it'd be a Direct join. Otherwise, after DUKKE (assuming flyover mandatory), as Stoppers said, intercept and follow the 134 radial towards Robledillo, thence the procedure.
But not below 6000 ft until after the next turn, once established on the 045 radial inbound to Torrejon and inside 19.0 DME from VTZ.
(Ref is Torrejon ILS Z RW23 dated 6 Feb 14 AIRAC AMDT 14/13)
Champagne anyone...?
My charts are old - shows a minimum of 5000ft after DUKKE and minimum intercept of 5000ft at the centreline. 6000ft in the hold at DUKKE.
And you'd be looking to establish inbound on the 225/045 ITJA not VTZ; VTZ merely provides the lead radial.
And you'd be looking to establish inbound on the 225/045 ITJA not VTZ; VTZ merely provides the lead radial.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Lyneham
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cool. Thanks for the help.
So, now not in the case in particular, under what circumstance would you be required to be within 30 degrees of track before going outbound?
So, now not in the case in particular, under what circumstance would you be required to be within 30 degrees of track before going outbound?
Champagne anyone...?
If the hold was based on a beacon and the outbound radial was also based on that beacon then you'd need be within 30 of the outbound as you headed inbound.
In your example DUKKE is serving two purposes: it's an arrival holding fix and it's also a terminal waypoint. If you were cleared the arrival via DUKKE (no mention of the hold) then you can effectively ignore the published hold as it's not relevant to what you're doing - it's not part of the procedure. It then just becomes a standard waypoint with a CP transition (unless it's RNAV fly-over).
In your example DUKKE is serving two purposes: it's an arrival holding fix and it's also a terminal waypoint. If you were cleared the arrival via DUKKE (no mention of the hold) then you can effectively ignore the published hold as it's not relevant to what you're doing - it's not part of the procedure. It then just becomes a standard waypoint with a CP transition (unless it's RNAV fly-over).
I always thought you had to do a positioning hold if you were outside 30 degrees of the outbound
Quote reynold " Otherwise enter the hold, ehich will normally be aligned with the outbound track, or certainly within 30 deg of it."
Not in my experience. Try, Hannover Celle to 27R ILS. Cheers
Not in my experience. Try, Hannover Celle to 27R ILS. Cheers
