Berlin Wall
Thread Starter
Berlin Wall
Gents
I'm wondering what the mood was in the RAF, but especially RAFG, when the Berlin Wall came down. Was it initially a (brief) period of heightened tension due to uncertainty, or was it instantly apparent that the RAF was going to be decimated due to the "peace dividend"? How did you all feel in those first few days and weeks? I spoke to a West German working in Cyprus, a year or two after it came down and he said your average West German resident wished it had been built back up again after the initial euphoria had subsided.
MD
I'm wondering what the mood was in the RAF, but especially RAFG, when the Berlin Wall came down. Was it initially a (brief) period of heightened tension due to uncertainty, or was it instantly apparent that the RAF was going to be decimated due to the "peace dividend"? How did you all feel in those first few days and weeks? I spoke to a West German working in Cyprus, a year or two after it came down and he said your average West German resident wished it had been built back up again after the initial euphoria had subsided.
MD
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I was a dependant when my old man was at 26SU Gatow. He was gutted as he thought we'd be posted back to UK early. And we were
MD
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I know this is not directly relevant to the posting but I was in Berlin about a year after the wall came down and the differences between 'East' and 'West' were startling, frighteningly so.
I was in Berlin last week and to some extent the differences are less marked now but still apparent. The various museums and memorabilia related to communism, the wall, and the previous regime are truly shocking, moving, and saddening. People grew up and lived under that vile and oppressive regime in our lifetimes, and were murdered and tortured by the regime.
To see the cruelty of man to man in our times, everybody who has the opportunity should go to Berlin, Ozwiecim/Auschwitz, and Robben Eiland. I'm sure others can add to that list. I am not convinced that the horrors of the Nazi regime were worse than those inflicted by communism.
I was in Berlin last week and to some extent the differences are less marked now but still apparent. The various museums and memorabilia related to communism, the wall, and the previous regime are truly shocking, moving, and saddening. People grew up and lived under that vile and oppressive regime in our lifetimes, and were murdered and tortured by the regime.
To see the cruelty of man to man in our times, everybody who has the opportunity should go to Berlin, Ozwiecim/Auschwitz, and Robben Eiland. I'm sure others can add to that list. I am not convinced that the horrors of the Nazi regime were worse than those inflicted by communism.
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he said your average West German resident wished it had been built back up again after the initial euphoria had subsided.
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some of the East German working class now think they were better off when the wall was up
Now it's survival of the fittest, and those conditioned by years of communism can't make it.
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I know this is not directly relevant to the posting but I was in Berlin about a year after the wall came down and the differences between 'East' and 'West' were startling, frighteningly so.
I was in Berlin last week and to some extent the differences are less marked now but still apparent. The various museums and memorabilia related to communism, the wall, and the previous regime are truly shocking, moving, and saddening. People grew up and lived under that vile and oppressive regime in our lifetimes, and were murdered and tortured by the regime.
To see the cruelty of man to man in our times, everybody who has the opportunity should go to Berlin, Ozwiecim/Auschwitz, and Robben Eiland. I'm sure others can add to that list. I am not convinced that the horrors of the Nazi regime were worse than those inflicted by communism.
I was in Berlin last week and to some extent the differences are less marked now but still apparent. The various museums and memorabilia related to communism, the wall, and the previous regime are truly shocking, moving, and saddening. People grew up and lived under that vile and oppressive regime in our lifetimes, and were murdered and tortured by the regime.
To see the cruelty of man to man in our times, everybody who has the opportunity should go to Berlin, Ozwiecim/Auschwitz, and Robben Eiland. I'm sure others can add to that list. I am not convinced that the horrors of the Nazi regime were worse than those inflicted by communism.
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Capetonian. Capitalism is all about stealing from other people and exploitation to get rich.
Maybe Soviet brain surgeons were not greedy and did not put profit before peoples health?
Those conditioned by socialism might have seen capitalism as immoral and unethical.
Maybe Soviet brain surgeons were not greedy and did not put profit before peoples health?
Those conditioned by socialism might have seen capitalism as immoral and unethical.
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[quoteI gave it six months for the dust to settle, literally and metaphorically, then PVR'd. Job done; time to find a new purpose. ][/quote]
Very pragmatic Fox3.......what was the mood in the immediate aftermath though?
MD
Very pragmatic Fox3.......what was the mood in the immediate aftermath though?
MD
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Capitalism is all about stealing from other people and exploitation to get rich.
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The mood was very much "what now?" I don't recollect any significant changes other than there was an understanding that the party would now be coming to an end and there was a likelihood of cuts. Personally, I never saw draw-down as I was posted back to UK within a year.
At Gutersloh our station commander (Ian Stewart) stood up in the officers' mess and told us that he thought there would be a decade of uncertainty. Some of the ADIZ procedures changed but flying ops continued broadly as before. Indeed, I recollect flying one border patrol (something we did quite regularly) and noting how quickly holes were being bulldozed in the fence. Many of us spent time staring at Trabants which were percolating across the border.
I think that real change commenced when GW1 started as this moved the focus and made us think about something other than the IGB (people were actually getting shot down). This also slowed-down the cuts that Whitehall was considering. We staggered into the Balkans and subsequently GW2 without any clear direction from government. The Labour Party attempted to define the boundaries and managed to deliver SDR in 1998 (1 LS, 2MS or 4 SS) but this was largely irrelevant before the ink dried.
In hindsight Ian Stewart's ten years was way off the mark; some 25 years later there is still no steady state in terms of national strategy. What are we going to do with a big flat top? Is there really a need for so much SH (you can never have too much SH!)? What should the vehicle fleet look like? About the only 'no brainer' capabilities to retain are the Nuclear Deterrant, AD and MPA (:oops
At Gutersloh our station commander (Ian Stewart) stood up in the officers' mess and told us that he thought there would be a decade of uncertainty. Some of the ADIZ procedures changed but flying ops continued broadly as before. Indeed, I recollect flying one border patrol (something we did quite regularly) and noting how quickly holes were being bulldozed in the fence. Many of us spent time staring at Trabants which were percolating across the border.
I think that real change commenced when GW1 started as this moved the focus and made us think about something other than the IGB (people were actually getting shot down). This also slowed-down the cuts that Whitehall was considering. We staggered into the Balkans and subsequently GW2 without any clear direction from government. The Labour Party attempted to define the boundaries and managed to deliver SDR in 1998 (1 LS, 2MS or 4 SS) but this was largely irrelevant before the ink dried.
In hindsight Ian Stewart's ten years was way off the mark; some 25 years later there is still no steady state in terms of national strategy. What are we going to do with a big flat top? Is there really a need for so much SH (you can never have too much SH!)? What should the vehicle fleet look like? About the only 'no brainer' capabilities to retain are the Nuclear Deterrant, AD and MPA (:oops
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Capitalism is all about stealing from other people and exploitation to get rich.
Socialism and communism failed, miserably. What more proof do you want?
Those who espouse these admirable theories should see, as I have, first hand, the damage, death, misery, and destruction that they have caused.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
WORLD IDEOLOGIES EXPLAINED BY REFERENCE TO COWS
FEUDALISM
You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.
SOCIALISM
You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn
with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The
government gives you a glass of milk.
FASCISM
You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of
them, and sells you the milk.
PURE COMMUNISM
You share two cows with your neighbors. You and your neighbors bicker
about who has the most "ability" and who has the most "need". Meanwhile,
no one works, no one gets any milk, and the cows drop dead of
starvation.
RUSSIAN COMMUNISM
You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government
takes all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can and sell it
on the black market.
PERESTROIKA
You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the Mafia takes
all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can and sell it on the
"free" market.
CAMBODIAN COMMUNISM
You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.
DICTATORSHIP
You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.
PURE DEMOCRACY
You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.
REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY
You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the
milk.
BUREAUCRACY
You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed
them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then
it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the
drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the
missing cows.
CAPITALISM
You don't have any cows. The bank will not lend you money to buy cows,
because you don't have any cows to put up as collateral.
PURE ANARCHY
You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your
neighbors try to take the cows and kill you.
ANARCHO-CAPITALISM
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
SURREALISM
You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica
lessons.
OLYMPICS-ISM
You have two cows, one American, one Chinese. With the help of trilling
violins and state of the art montage photography, John Tesh narrates the
moving tale of how the American cow overcame the agony of growing up in
a suburb with (gasp) divorced parents, then mentions in passing that the
Chinese cow was beaten every day by a tyrannical farmer and watched its
parents butchered before its eyes. The American cow wins the
competition, severely spraining an udder in a gritty performance, and
gets a multi-million dollar contract to endorse Wheaties. The Chinese
cow is led out of the arena and shot by Chinese government officials,
though no one ever hears about it. McDonald's buys the meat and serves
it hot and fast at its Beijing restaurant.
AMERICAN CORPORATE CAPITALISM
Both cows are bloated with toxic steroids. They are set out to graze on
privatized public parks, release massive amounts of flatulence that
destroys the ozone layer, die from excess ultraviolet light, and are
processed into meat-like products that look great as a result of clever
and unprincipled marketing strategies. When you mortgage your
artificially devalued farm at high interest rates in order to buy meat,
you consume the poisoned material and develop terminal illnesses because
there is no health care plan to treat you. The corporate management uses
your purchase price to acquire THEIR meat from cows raised "naturally"
on tree-free rain forest land outside of the country where labor and
resources are cheap.
BRITISH REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY
Both cows are mad
FEUDALISM
You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.
SOCIALISM
You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn
with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The
government gives you a glass of milk.
FASCISM
You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of
them, and sells you the milk.
PURE COMMUNISM
You share two cows with your neighbors. You and your neighbors bicker
about who has the most "ability" and who has the most "need". Meanwhile,
no one works, no one gets any milk, and the cows drop dead of
starvation.
RUSSIAN COMMUNISM
You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government
takes all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can and sell it
on the black market.
PERESTROIKA
You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the Mafia takes
all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can and sell it on the
"free" market.
CAMBODIAN COMMUNISM
You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.
DICTATORSHIP
You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.
PURE DEMOCRACY
You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.
REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY
You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the
milk.
BUREAUCRACY
You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed
them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then
it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the
drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the
missing cows.
CAPITALISM
You don't have any cows. The bank will not lend you money to buy cows,
because you don't have any cows to put up as collateral.
PURE ANARCHY
You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your
neighbors try to take the cows and kill you.
ANARCHO-CAPITALISM
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
SURREALISM
You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica
lessons.
OLYMPICS-ISM
You have two cows, one American, one Chinese. With the help of trilling
violins and state of the art montage photography, John Tesh narrates the
moving tale of how the American cow overcame the agony of growing up in
a suburb with (gasp) divorced parents, then mentions in passing that the
Chinese cow was beaten every day by a tyrannical farmer and watched its
parents butchered before its eyes. The American cow wins the
competition, severely spraining an udder in a gritty performance, and
gets a multi-million dollar contract to endorse Wheaties. The Chinese
cow is led out of the arena and shot by Chinese government officials,
though no one ever hears about it. McDonald's buys the meat and serves
it hot and fast at its Beijing restaurant.
AMERICAN CORPORATE CAPITALISM
Both cows are bloated with toxic steroids. They are set out to graze on
privatized public parks, release massive amounts of flatulence that
destroys the ozone layer, die from excess ultraviolet light, and are
processed into meat-like products that look great as a result of clever
and unprincipled marketing strategies. When you mortgage your
artificially devalued farm at high interest rates in order to buy meat,
you consume the poisoned material and develop terminal illnesses because
there is no health care plan to treat you. The corporate management uses
your purchase price to acquire THEIR meat from cows raised "naturally"
on tree-free rain forest land outside of the country where labor and
resources are cheap.
BRITISH REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY
Both cows are mad
When the wall came down
A few months after the event I was discussing the situation with a colleague. He summed it up very well:
"For 30 years I have known who the enemy was and where the threat lay, now I'm not at all sure. The one thing I am certain of though is that the world has become a much more dangerous place"
I think that he was right on the mark.
YS
"For 30 years I have known who the enemy was and where the threat lay, now I'm not at all sure. The one thing I am certain of though is that the world has become a much more dangerous place"
I think that he was right on the mark.
YS
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
At Nav School, on the shop floor it was business as normal, up the food chain there was a bit more consternation especially when they were talking of cutting the RAF to 57,000. We had some 90 instructors pushing through around 140 students per year. While you can halve the throughput you could not halve the instructor numbers.
Later, I was on a NATO committee and we set up NATO-wide simulation exercises. It was not until about 1993 that the need for these was questions.
Later still, at Coningsby we still practiced cold war fortress Britain scenarios with CAP manning, mass raids etc. There was a marked reluctance to look forward even after GW1. We (or rather the secret squirrels) hung on to the old war plans and TTW procedures years after the world changed and former WPC started to join NATO.
I suppose in some ways they were vindicated with the renewed Russian incursions into UK and NATO air space and the resumption of maritime ASW and ASuW for the Nimrod force.
But just how long do you hang on to obsolete documentation in case you can use it as a framework for the future? Units close, sqns disband, aircraft withdrawn, aircraft carriers scrapped and hardened buildings are chopped up.
Well it would have had we had a Nimrod force.
Later, I was on a NATO committee and we set up NATO-wide simulation exercises. It was not until about 1993 that the need for these was questions.
Later still, at Coningsby we still practiced cold war fortress Britain scenarios with CAP manning, mass raids etc. There was a marked reluctance to look forward even after GW1. We (or rather the secret squirrels) hung on to the old war plans and TTW procedures years after the world changed and former WPC started to join NATO.
I suppose in some ways they were vindicated with the renewed Russian incursions into UK and NATO air space and the resumption of maritime ASW and ASuW for the Nimrod force.
But just how long do you hang on to obsolete documentation in case you can use it as a framework for the future? Units close, sqns disband, aircraft withdrawn, aircraft carriers scrapped and hardened buildings are chopped up.
Well it would have had we had a Nimrod force.
The immediate feeling was one of euphoria I recollect, mainly for the Germans who were now free, and partly because we'd recently been informed of a possible role of Central European AD with a life expectancy in the event of war of 24 minutes ("You'll be pleased to hear things have improved massively since the days of the 'twenty minuters' !")
Next day was...Will there be a coup d'etat in the USSR and a war anyway?
p.s.
Ireland
You have two cows....one of them's a horse!
Next day was...Will there be a coup d'etat in the USSR and a war anyway?
p.s.
Ireland
You have two cows....one of them's a horse!
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Capitalism is about ensuring that those who work harder and educate their offspring prosper and do better than those who are parasitic.
Socialism and communism failed, miserably. What more proof do you want?
Those who espouse these admirable theories should see, as I have, first hand, the damage, death, misery, and destruction that they have caused.
Socialism and communism failed, miserably. What more proof do you want?
Those who espouse these admirable theories should see, as I have, first hand, the damage, death, misery, and destruction that they have caused.
and the cost of university education is £9000 per year?Norway is socialist....
Norwegians aren't exactly living in poverty and cueing up for food. Norway nationalised it's oil and gas, then decided to use renewable energy itself. So it can sell the oil and gas to other suckers who are dependant on it. This money pays for their healthcare, housing, education, pensions, helping with unemployment, etc etc.