Advocating RAFAT trip to New Zealand.
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Its a fair question.
A fair question by me, go on RAF how much is it? I'm interested. How many threads are running about missing MPA/ fighters/MANPADS because of reduced budgets and yet the fig leaf, the sacred cow of the RAF is never ever threatened with the stun gun!
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We could send these.. http://m.youtube.com/results?q=red%2...s%20rc%20&sm=3 no one would know the difference!
As for Scampton being bothballed isnt there some Tornados moving in, in the near future to hangar 3?
As for Scampton being bothballed isnt there some Tornados moving in, in the near future to hangar 3?
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£8.8 million a year back in 2010.
My source here> BBC News - Scrap Red Arrows, says Plaid Cymru MP Jonathan Edwards
I suspect its a lot higher than that if its even calculable.
Cost against prestige. Pride against practicality.
But I concede 8.8 million was probably good value, comparatively. If true.
Buccaneer that is quality....fly them higher...buy up motorheads sound system and play jet engine noises!!
I suspect its a lot higher than that if its even calculable.
Cost against prestige. Pride against practicality.
But I concede 8.8 million was probably good value, comparatively. If true.
Buccaneer that is quality....fly them higher...buy up motorheads sound system and play jet engine noises!!
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What does provision of a fire station in town "X" have to do with how the RAF spends its budget?
Surely you are not so naive as to believe that if the RAF realised the perils in "X", the CAS would offer up RAFAT for disbandment, the budget would flow back to the Treasury, and hence onward to town "X"'s county to spend on its fire stations?
If this were the case, perhaps the inhabitants of "X" might realise the perils of not having an MPA, take the lack of fire cover on risk, and volunteer the cash for MPA provision?
Or not.
Surely you are not so naive as to believe that if the RAF realised the perils in "X", the CAS would offer up RAFAT for disbandment, the budget would flow back to the Treasury, and hence onward to town "X"'s county to spend on its fire stations?
If this were the case, perhaps the inhabitants of "X" might realise the perils of not having an MPA, take the lack of fire cover on risk, and volunteer the cash for MPA provision?
Or not.
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Its all taxpayers money....
One way or another. An obvious sign we haven't got our national finances in order? I was only using town X as one immediate example that happened today - this sort of cutback is going on everywhere at many levels all over the British Isles, weekly. Could have come closer to home, or further away..
(If the RAF has money to spend within its budget on a display in New Zealand (!!) when it hasn't got...you tell me- it needs to look at how it spends its budget. And who is in charge of its budget.
* If it really is "only" 8.8 million pa get British Industry/Commercial sponsorship? RR,BAE and other aviation/arms dealers to pay for it....plenty of them.
(If the RAF has money to spend within its budget on a display in New Zealand (!!) when it hasn't got...you tell me- it needs to look at how it spends its budget. And who is in charge of its budget.
* If it really is "only" 8.8 million pa get British Industry/Commercial sponsorship? RR,BAE and other aviation/arms dealers to pay for it....plenty of them.
Shot this one down if you will...
1 The Aussie cousins have Hawks (similar to our T2-?)
2 Paint nine in water based paint;
3 Send the Reds out by airliner to fly them.
Would that work?
Give me half an hour to dig the slit trench outside, please......
2 Paint nine in water based paint;
3 Send the Reds out by airliner to fly them.
Would that work?
Give me half an hour to dig the slit trench outside, please......
Hangarshuffle
If, and it's one hell of a big if, the Reds were to display in NZ why the hell do you think the RAF would be picking up the tab? Do you think the RAF paid for the recent tour of the Middle East? Do you actually inwardly digest anything that is written on this forum? Foreign tours are funded by industry, plain and simple.
I don't know you from Adam but right now you appear to be either very naive or you just deliberately ignore factual inputs to push your own, incorrect, agenda.
BV
I don't know you from Adam but right now you appear to be either very naive or you just deliberately ignore factual inputs to push your own, incorrect, agenda.
BV
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Give me half an hour to dig the slit trench outside, please......
If you can dig in, in 30 minutes, you have NOTHING to fear from a bunch of internet crabs (other arms, branches, services, nations and nicknames are available).
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What does provision of a fire station in town "X" have to do with how the RAF spends its budget?
Surely you are not so naive as to believe that if the RAF realised the perils in "X", the CAS would offer up RAFAT for disbandment, the budget would flow back to the Treasury, and hence onward to town "X"'s county to spend on its fire stations?
If this were the case, perhaps the inhabitants of "X" might realise the perils of not having an MPA, take the lack of fire cover on risk, and volunteer the cash for MPA provision?
Or not.
Surely you are not so naive as to believe that if the RAF realised the perils in "X", the CAS would offer up RAFAT for disbandment, the budget would flow back to the Treasury, and hence onward to town "X"'s county to spend on its fire stations?
If this were the case, perhaps the inhabitants of "X" might realise the perils of not having an MPA, take the lack of fire cover on risk, and volunteer the cash for MPA provision?
Or not.
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One just wonders were the funding would come from, we can't all have Christmas every day you know...... Well unless you live in Derby of course 
Obviously the RAFAT will never visit NZ. The poster is just dreaming.
I was appalled that the RAF didn't see fit to send anything to the RNZAF's 75th anniversary do at Ohakea the other year though. Very poor treatment to a loyal ally I thought.
I was appalled that the RAF didn't see fit to send anything to the RNZAF's 75th anniversary do at Ohakea the other year though. Very poor treatment to a loyal ally I thought.
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They have done their best to redress the omission by selecting a stream of NZ pilots in the last few years!
H.
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Wait until you are invited before refusing, please.
old10ge - What makes you think anyone in Scotland would want to invite the Reds for a show?
One of the many benefits of independence will be a serious reduction in the number of low-flying military jets over our territory and too often sadly colliding with each other or a hill.
Why we would want to see a bunch of foreign training jets doing pretty things in the sky?
Might be _slightly_ more impressed if they were actual combat jets instead of Hawks.
Yanks use F/A18 and IIRC (and I'm sure I'll be corrected) have always used current front-line aircraft. Russian Knights use SU-27s of various marks and the Swifts fly Mig-29s. Is the Typhoon not maneuverable enough? Or is it second-best Britain again? Trying to kid on that somehow the UK is relevant and is still a major player...
"Fur coat and nae knickers" is a phrase that springs to mind. You can't afford fire stations or coastguards or a viable MPA so don't kid yourself on you can afford an ego-polishing aerobatic display team.
And if the RAF can't recruit without the Reds then it says a lot more about the RAF than it does about the Reds (whose personal skill and professionalism is not in doubt, despite the tone of the foregoing)
Piesupper
One of the many benefits of independence will be a serious reduction in the number of low-flying military jets over our territory and too often sadly colliding with each other or a hill.
Why we would want to see a bunch of foreign training jets doing pretty things in the sky?
Might be _slightly_ more impressed if they were actual combat jets instead of Hawks.
Yanks use F/A18 and IIRC (and I'm sure I'll be corrected) have always used current front-line aircraft. Russian Knights use SU-27s of various marks and the Swifts fly Mig-29s. Is the Typhoon not maneuverable enough? Or is it second-best Britain again? Trying to kid on that somehow the UK is relevant and is still a major player...
"Fur coat and nae knickers" is a phrase that springs to mind. You can't afford fire stations or coastguards or a viable MPA so don't kid yourself on you can afford an ego-polishing aerobatic display team.
And if the RAF can't recruit without the Reds then it says a lot more about the RAF than it does about the Reds (whose personal skill and professionalism is not in doubt, despite the tone of the foregoing)
Piesupper
Last edited by piesupper; 21st Jan 2014 at 11:27. Reason: Add Mig-29s for Russian Swifts
I used to be a bit cynical about the Reds value, but having worked in areas where you see the value of what they bring, then I am now a huge convert. The Reds provide something which is intangible - its that demonstration of British values, skills and capability which wows audiences and impresses rulers. Its fair to say that their Mid East tour was a rousing success, and very markedly improved UK standing in a region built on gestures, demonstration and presence - sticking RAFAT in made a real difference and I would aruge indirectly helps UK win export orders in a range of sectors and keeps people in jobs. Why - because the people there want to be impressed, they want to see UK commitment and they want to see something that stands out from the crowd.
Secondly, the Reds presence provides diplomatic access, its on the front pages of all the main papers and it is something which is an easy 'in' to begin talking about more difficult matters with. If you dont believe me, try watching the Ambassadors with Prince Mark and the President to see how business is really done.
Just because you cannot put a direct value on it doesnt mean it isnt worth its weight in gold. One of the worst things this country could do is scrap the Reds - they provide diplomatic influence that other nations can only dream of.
Having just come back from the Bahrain Air Show and seen how well a small UK presence is received, I am a huge supporter of this sort of thing. It may not kill bad guys, but it helps set the conditions to help UK as a whole acheive so much more.
Secondly, the Reds presence provides diplomatic access, its on the front pages of all the main papers and it is something which is an easy 'in' to begin talking about more difficult matters with. If you dont believe me, try watching the Ambassadors with Prince Mark and the President to see how business is really done.
Just because you cannot put a direct value on it doesnt mean it isnt worth its weight in gold. One of the worst things this country could do is scrap the Reds - they provide diplomatic influence that other nations can only dream of.
Having just come back from the Bahrain Air Show and seen how well a small UK presence is received, I am a huge supporter of this sort of thing. It may not kill bad guys, but it helps set the conditions to help UK as a whole acheive so much more.
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The best -as in the most entertaining - display teams normally use trainers
A large supersonic jet makes a hell of a racket and can't stay within sight most of the time - remember when the RAF flew Lightnings in displays?
You need to emulate someone like the Snowbirds in fact.......
A large supersonic jet makes a hell of a racket and can't stay within sight most of the time - remember when the RAF flew Lightnings in displays?
You need to emulate someone like the Snowbirds in fact.......
To back up H-H - at Bahrain last week, the F22 and B1 displays were absolutely pants. Fast flypast then off. By contrast the Typhoon display was absolutely superb and stole the show. Maybe Typhoon should be a trainer...
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A reasonable point, HH. In fact looking at List of aerobatic teams - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia proves you are correct.
For those who have seen the F-18s and the Russian Knights, how does the spectator experience compare to the Reds (or other teams using trainer aircraft)?
From a national willy-waving PoV, I'd still be inclined (were it my decision) to showcase the latest front-line aircraft but showing off to sheiks is a different gig from enthusing the holidaymakers at Torquay etc.
Either way, don't go holding your breath for an invite to the Reds to fly over Independence celebrations in Edinburgh in 2016.
For those who have seen the F-18s and the Russian Knights, how does the spectator experience compare to the Reds (or other teams using trainer aircraft)?
From a national willy-waving PoV, I'd still be inclined (were it my decision) to showcase the latest front-line aircraft but showing off to sheiks is a different gig from enthusing the holidaymakers at Torquay etc.
Either way, don't go holding your breath for an invite to the Reds to fly over Independence celebrations in Edinburgh in 2016.
Jimlad1 - well said, as usual. Then Ambassadors was a frighteningly accurate portrayal of life in a mission is a slightly hostile Receiving State, so I'm told. There are numerous in-jokes (qv Prince Mark) and accurate details - right down to the emergency destruction kit in the screened area.
The arguments against RAFAT are very similar to those touted about the service careers of Princes William and Harry - based either on Class Envy and zero-sum economics (or both). The recent announcement of Capt Wales taking up an Engagements post in London District makes eminent sense from a soft-power perspective. Both RAFAT and Harry are engagement tools (so to speak) and both have massive street currency, and in the case of Capt Wales, operational credibility.
Back to the OP, it is a great pity that RAFAT can't make it out to NZ, given that there is the 80th Anniversary of the founding of the RNZAF in 2017, but the practicalities are sadly clear. For anyone mildly interested in history of the RAF, it is instructive to see the involvement of early RAF aviators such as Salmond and Cochrane in shaping the RNZAF.
The arguments against RAFAT are very similar to those touted about the service careers of Princes William and Harry - based either on Class Envy and zero-sum economics (or both). The recent announcement of Capt Wales taking up an Engagements post in London District makes eminent sense from a soft-power perspective. Both RAFAT and Harry are engagement tools (so to speak) and both have massive street currency, and in the case of Capt Wales, operational credibility.
Back to the OP, it is a great pity that RAFAT can't make it out to NZ, given that there is the 80th Anniversary of the founding of the RNZAF in 2017, but the practicalities are sadly clear. For anyone mildly interested in history of the RAF, it is instructive to see the involvement of early RAF aviators such as Salmond and Cochrane in shaping the RNZAF.