Flt. Lt. Sean Cunningham inquest
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: Pasadena
Easy Street,
That sort of thing is a possibility. In a complex case, the Coroner can also give a "narrative verdict" that allows them to describe their reasoning and the factors involved in more detail.
Generally, I'd expect a board of inquiry to take a broader view than a coroner.
However, it's hard to see how the Coroner wouldn't be interested in the circumstances of the seat firing, as that's an undeviated part of the same chain of events. The coroner took evidence about the seemingly much less relevant Night Nurse bottle, in case that was also part of the chain of events.
I think this is a particularly complex case for the Coroner to decide. Even if the Inquest were to decide that there was evidence that the seat had been fired deliberately, a firer would have expected the parachute to deploy, and for Flt Lt Cunningham to survive, and so it might be hard to assign several of the verdicts available.
Dervish,
If interested parties are stirring the pot, I would expect the Coroner to be clear in his/her verdict, and not to be influenced. Where there is secret and arcane evidence, it's certainly possible that the Coroner would not know about a whole raft of relevant circumstances, but in this case, there don't seem to be any obvious hidden factors. While the inquest is non-adversarial, in that the Coroner questions witnesses, and there is no cross examination, there are still often going to be profoundly different views amongst the interested parties.
That sort of thing is a possibility. In a complex case, the Coroner can also give a "narrative verdict" that allows them to describe their reasoning and the factors involved in more detail.
Generally, I'd expect a board of inquiry to take a broader view than a coroner.
However, it's hard to see how the Coroner wouldn't be interested in the circumstances of the seat firing, as that's an undeviated part of the same chain of events. The coroner took evidence about the seemingly much less relevant Night Nurse bottle, in case that was also part of the chain of events.
I think this is a particularly complex case for the Coroner to decide. Even if the Inquest were to decide that there was evidence that the seat had been fired deliberately, a firer would have expected the parachute to deploy, and for Flt Lt Cunningham to survive, and so it might be hard to assign several of the verdicts available.
Dervish,
If interested parties are stirring the pot, I would expect the Coroner to be clear in his/her verdict, and not to be influenced. Where there is secret and arcane evidence, it's certainly possible that the Coroner would not know about a whole raft of relevant circumstances, but in this case, there don't seem to be any obvious hidden factors. While the inquest is non-adversarial, in that the Coroner questions witnesses, and there is no cross examination, there are still often going to be profoundly different views amongst the interested parties.
Joined: Dec 2007
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
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From: Westnoreastsouth
f the seats are fitted with five safety pins and the one in the seat pan was incorrectly fitted, regardless of how, why did the other pins insertion not stop the firing sequence? Is not the removal of the pins the last sequence before engine start as another safety check?
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: UK
If the seats are fitted with five safety pins and the one in the seat pan was incorrectly fitted, regardless of how, why did the other pins insertion not stop the firing sequence? Is not the removal of the pins the last sequence before engine start as another safety check?
- Seat Pan firing
- Main Gun sear
Main Gun sear is removed "Safe for Parking" but inserted "Safe for Servicing". As posts above state, "Safe for Servicing" may or may not apply to routine night in/out hangar movements depending on policy.
I do not recall exactly from my service days, but on live seats now I am still frequently surprised by arriving at a cockpit, and finding the seat pin not visible, and/or straps over even through the handle. I was taught that you leave the seat as the next person needs to find it - and the 1st thing they will do is check the pin is in, so ensure it is visible without needing to get close to it. And of course, the last thing you do as you leave is check the pin isn't it...
NoD
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Bristol Temple Meads
Generally, I'd expect a board of inquiry to take a broader view than a coroner.
While the inquest is non-adversarial, in that the Coroner questions witnesses, and there is no cross examination, there are still often going to be profoundly different views amongst the interested parties.
DV
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 633
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From: Pasadena
Distant Voice,
You're right. Taking a broader view might not be the same as taking a deep enough view.
The Coroner may indeed produce a better report than an enquiry, and can set a broad scope for the Inquest. However, they can also choose to focus on a very narrow question of the cause of death.
I'd still suggest that the Inquest process is rather different from other legal hearings though - the Coroner interrogates, and interested parties' questions are permitted by the Coroner. Questioning that seems to be "cross-examination" would only be permitted if it serves the Coroner's aims for the process; the Coroner may reasonably allow the next-of-kin, and their representatives, to be more general and probing in their questions. All written evidence and evidence given in person is still under oath; witnesses can decline to answer for fear of self-incrimination.
I just wanted to highlight some of the unusual features of the Inquest process that can account for it leading to rather different results than trials or other enquiries. As to which leads to the best picture of events: it depends on who conducts them and how.
You're right. Taking a broader view might not be the same as taking a deep enough view.
The Coroner may indeed produce a better report than an enquiry, and can set a broad scope for the Inquest. However, they can also choose to focus on a very narrow question of the cause of death.
I'd still suggest that the Inquest process is rather different from other legal hearings though - the Coroner interrogates, and interested parties' questions are permitted by the Coroner. Questioning that seems to be "cross-examination" would only be permitted if it serves the Coroner's aims for the process; the Coroner may reasonably allow the next-of-kin, and their representatives, to be more general and probing in their questions. All written evidence and evidence given in person is still under oath; witnesses can decline to answer for fear of self-incrimination.
I just wanted to highlight some of the unusual features of the Inquest process that can account for it leading to rather different results than trials or other enquiries. As to which leads to the best picture of events: it depends on who conducts them and how.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,311
Likes: 365
From: uk
it depends on who conducts them and how
Very true. In the Nimrod case, Mr Walker was firm but fair. He did not appreciate being lied to by MoD and allowed the families a certain leeway, such as producing the airworthiness regulations that MoD told him were "irrelevant". The Government response was to try to gag Coroners.
At the opposite end of the spectrum, at the Sea King ASaC inquest (Jan 2007) Sir Richard Curtis flatly refused to allow the father of one deceased airman to challenge blatant lies by MoD. In fact, all but shouted down the father in court. The MoD legal guy didn't even have to try, it was so obvious whose side the Coroner was on. It was HE who was adverserial!
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Bourton-on-the-Water
In case there's anyone who doesn't know, the Coroner will give his findings tomorrow, Wednesday, starting at 1000.
The MAA will not release its SI report (Service Inquiry, used to be a BoI) until sometime next week.
airsound
The MAA will not release its SI report (Service Inquiry, used to be a BoI) until sometime next week.
airsound
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
I spent 2 hours in the dock with Mr Walker questioning me. Firm but fair would be a good description. I left the court with the impression that he only wanted the truth, no agendas
Joined: May 2007
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From: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Seat Pins
I've only ever been strapped into three bang seats, and they were all the same, and the last time was in 1975. That seat needed 80 knots forward speed to work at ground level. Nowadays I can't afford to fly anything with a proper bang seat, although a recent offer relating to a JP5 was very tempting.
No pins to check, but (IIRC) fifteen things to look for before sitting down; 5 reds, 5 blacks and 5 greens.
Then, if all looks good, check, again, the last red, and sit down. Strap in, taxy, and when ready for the off, reach up with right arm and move the red golf ball that is pressing against your neck, to a point over your right shoulder where you can see it.
On landing, make the seat safe by pulling the golfball ball back to where it presses against your neck, reminding you that seat is not going to fire.
Clearly visible by the Caravan controller as well as the Lineys and other members of the formation, everyone knew if your seat was armed.
Why did that never catch on?
No pins to check, but (IIRC) fifteen things to look for before sitting down; 5 reds, 5 blacks and 5 greens.
Then, if all looks good, check, again, the last red, and sit down. Strap in, taxy, and when ready for the off, reach up with right arm and move the red golf ball that is pressing against your neck, to a point over your right shoulder where you can see it.
On landing, make the seat safe by pulling the golfball ball back to where it presses against your neck, reminding you that seat is not going to fire.
Clearly visible by the Caravan controller as well as the Lineys and other members of the formation, everyone knew if your seat was armed.
Why did that never catch on?
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Bristol Temple Meads
I spent 2 hours in the dock with Mr Walker questioning me. Firm but fair would be a good description. I left the court with the impression that he only wanted the truth, no agendas
DV
Joined: May 1999
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Posts: 27,394
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
airpolice wrote:
That was the Folland seat in the Gnat. So simple and so safe....
I think that the aircraft I flew which had the most pins was the Buccaneer - clearly it was essential to ensure that they were all in the correct position pre-start and also before exiting the aircraft.
On one occasion, I don't know why, but after I'd checked my cockpit, something made me go back and check the rear seat after the navigator had climbed out. Wherupon I found that he'd transposed 2 pins into the wrong locations, meaning that one element of the seat wasn't safe as one pin was longer than the other and wasn't doing its job, being in the wrong hole.
So I relocated them into their correct locations, then joined my navigator in the line hut. True to form, being a 237 OCU staff navigator, the first thing he said was "Where the f*** have you been?". When I told him, he said "Rubbish - and how dare you stick your nose in my cockpit"......
Typical of the sort of treatment we students had to put up with in those days.....
No pins to check, but (IIRC) fifteen things to look for before sitting down; 5 reds, 5 blacks and 5 greens.
I think that the aircraft I flew which had the most pins was the Buccaneer - clearly it was essential to ensure that they were all in the correct position pre-start and also before exiting the aircraft.
On one occasion, I don't know why, but after I'd checked my cockpit, something made me go back and check the rear seat after the navigator had climbed out. Wherupon I found that he'd transposed 2 pins into the wrong locations, meaning that one element of the seat wasn't safe as one pin was longer than the other and wasn't doing its job, being in the wrong hole.
So I relocated them into their correct locations, then joined my navigator in the line hut. True to form, being a 237 OCU staff navigator, the first thing he said was "Where the f*** have you been?". When I told him, he said "Rubbish - and how dare you stick your nose in my cockpit"......
Typical of the sort of treatment we students had to put up with in those days.....
Last edited by BEagle; 28th January 2014 at 21:41.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: South East Cornwall
Lincolnshire Echo tweeting live from the inquest today: https://twitter.com/adriancurtis_LE
Joined: May 2006
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From: front seat, facing forwards
Joined: Feb 2006
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Yep agree, not painting MB in a good light, I am so glad that the armourers now know it was not their fault, I should imagine that is a great weight lifted off their shoulders.
Such a tragedy, but one hopes lessons are learnt from this so it never happens again.
Such a tragedy, but one hopes lessons are learnt from this so it never happens again.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 194
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From: Boulevard of Broken Dreams
RNAS Yeovilton Air Day. 1975. Harrier display pilot.
Didn't the bang seat go off as the display pilot was exiting his aircraft opposite the ATC tower? Poor chap didn't stand a chance.
Presumably this was investigated, but what were the findings?
Apologies for thread drift...
Didn't the bang seat go off as the display pilot was exiting his aircraft opposite the ATC tower? Poor chap didn't stand a chance.
Presumably this was investigated, but what were the findings?
Apologies for thread drift...
