Flood aid to the civil community
"Hello, is that the Coastguard. This is OC Marham and I need a helicopter now to rescue a downed Tornado crew"
"That you for calling SERCO Coastguard Services All of our operatives are busy...............................................
"That you for calling SERCO Coastguard Services All of our operatives are busy...............................................
Military Aid to civil power is a very complex gig which can range from free through to very expensive bills. The reason costs are recovered is two fold - firstly to prevent local councils planning on calling out the military at their beck and call (which also supports local plant hire companies and the like) in order to provide a general pool of manpower.
Secondly cost recovery occurs when stores are expended and people taken off tasks in order to spend money to buy new ones. E.g. we wrote off several hundred sleeping bags a few years ago in some floods for the council to distribute - given they were bought for the military not the civilian population, its not unreasonable to charge the council to buy replacements.
The whole area is a complex shade of grey as there are times when charges wont be made, and other times when partial costs are recouped (e.g. fuel and T&S but not salaries), and other times full costs (e.g. salary and everything spent). The aim is to make authorities plan sensibly for civil contingencies and not rely on the white knight round the corner .
Its also worth noting that there is no charge associated with imminent risk to life, but strangely some of the requests like 'can the military come and build our adventure playground during the week' or 'can the military come and help us dig our cars out of a muddy car park at a civvy show' (both genuine requests) would be met with either a polite 'no chance' or 'yes and to get our services would cost £X).
For those with insomnia, try reading JDP2-02, a worthy read.
Secondly cost recovery occurs when stores are expended and people taken off tasks in order to spend money to buy new ones. E.g. we wrote off several hundred sleeping bags a few years ago in some floods for the council to distribute - given they were bought for the military not the civilian population, its not unreasonable to charge the council to buy replacements.
The whole area is a complex shade of grey as there are times when charges wont be made, and other times when partial costs are recouped (e.g. fuel and T&S but not salaries), and other times full costs (e.g. salary and everything spent). The aim is to make authorities plan sensibly for civil contingencies and not rely on the white knight round the corner .
Its also worth noting that there is no charge associated with imminent risk to life, but strangely some of the requests like 'can the military come and build our adventure playground during the week' or 'can the military come and help us dig our cars out of a muddy car park at a civvy show' (both genuine requests) would be met with either a polite 'no chance' or 'yes and to get our services would cost £X).
For those with insomnia, try reading JDP2-02, a worthy read.
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The Government is very quick to send off the military to foreign counties but not help its own back here in the UK, the same goes for all the Aid Agencies, may be it doesn't massage there egoes enough.
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Jimlad1. You explained that very well. A lesson in modern day Government reality. 
Sadly, it's uphill like this that the great unwashed need to recognise the value of the "MILITARY". Sod what's done to defend their interests in a rather beastly world.
Sadly, it's uphill like this that the great unwashed need to recognise the value of the "MILITARY". Sod what's done to defend their interests in a rather beastly world.
Jimlad,
Well put. We were often getting requests from various agencies for Chinook support. IIRC these requests were scrutinised in terms of PR value, crew training and to ensure that an equivalent civilian company was not being cut out of a fee-paying job. Clearly, in the case of Chinook, there are no comparable heavy-lift machines so, often, it came down to PR or training value. Recent Ops and the demands on the airframes/crews have reduced the opportunities but it remains feasible eg meteor lift , flood defence repair , and helping feed the animals (
) in Northern Ireland.
Well put. We were often getting requests from various agencies for Chinook support. IIRC these requests were scrutinised in terms of PR value, crew training and to ensure that an equivalent civilian company was not being cut out of a fee-paying job. Clearly, in the case of Chinook, there are no comparable heavy-lift machines so, often, it came down to PR or training value. Recent Ops and the demands on the airframes/crews have reduced the opportunities but it remains feasible eg meteor lift , flood defence repair , and helping feed the animals (
) in Northern Ireland.
Many years ago I was conducting flood relief with the mighty Wokka when I was called in by the brigadier in charge of the operation and told that I would have to stop flying because the danger to life was over and that from now on it would cost £20000 per hour for the flying time. I had just refuelled and told him that we would continue until we reached minimas and that I would put the hours down to crew training (which was excellent value for us by the way). They got well over another 100 tons of sandbags in place as a result and definitely stopped about 500 homes being inundated.
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If anyone suffers from insomnia, JDP02 is always useful; https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/.../defenceconrtibution1.pdf
Ch 2, Sects I and VI may be of interest.
266. For the reasons outlined above, MACA activity is, with a few specific exceptions, not funded within the Ministry of Defence (MOD) budget and is, therefore, conducted on a repayment basis. Treasury rules dictate that Government Departments charge for services that do not form part of their funded tasks. No matter how valid a request for assistance may appear, Defence funds are granted for Defence purposes. If the cost is not applicable to Defence, then it represents an improper use of resources and must be recovered. 79
Ch 2, Sects I and VI may be of interest.
SECTION I – MILITARY AID TO THE CIVIL AUTHORITIES
Introduction
203. Military operations in the UK, under Military Task (MT) 2.1, are placed under the overarching title of MACA. This section examines the principles, procedures and essential features of providing military assistance.
204. MACA is sub-divided into Military Aid to other Government Departments (MAGD), Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP) and Military Aid to the Civil Community (MACC). These operations are distinct from one another legally and politically, as well as in terms of military implications. More detailed information on MAGD, MACP and MACC is provided in Chapters 3, 4, and 5 respectively.
SECTION VI – FUNDING ARRANGEMENTS FOR MILITARY AID
TO THE CIVIL AUTHORITIES
TO THE CIVIL AUTHORITIES
General
266. For the reasons outlined above, MACA activity is, with a few specific exceptions, not funded within the Ministry of Defence (MOD) budget and is, therefore, conducted on a repayment basis. Treasury rules dictate that Government Departments charge for services that do not form part of their funded tasks. No matter how valid a request for assistance may appear, Defence funds are granted for Defence purposes. If the cost is not applicable to Defence, then it represents an improper use of resources and must be recovered. 79
Last edited by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU; 8th Jan 2014 at 17:20. Reason: Finger Trouble
Gentleman Aviator
Courtney
your scarily likely "dit" reminds me of an occasion a few years back, when there was a fire late one night in the Officers' Mess at a secret Shropshire helicopter base.
A bright and alert baby pilot(ess) discovered it, and dialled 2222 or whatever it was, hoping to get the Fire Section, or the Plods or something useful.
Got "Dumfries Doris" the "MoD Operator" - somewhere in Scotland anyway....
....."Hello, help - there's a fire in the top floor of the OM, RAF S.S.H.B."
"Can you tell me the building number please"
"It's the s0ddin' Officers' Mess!!"
"Do you have the building number please ......"
Puts 'phone down and runs to guardroom...........
.... all ends happily (except for some tropical fish, who got smoke bubbled through their water
)
your scarily likely "dit" reminds me of an occasion a few years back, when there was a fire late one night in the Officers' Mess at a secret Shropshire helicopter base.
A bright and alert baby pilot(ess) discovered it, and dialled 2222 or whatever it was, hoping to get the Fire Section, or the Plods or something useful.
Got "Dumfries Doris" the "MoD Operator" - somewhere in Scotland anyway....
....."Hello, help - there's a fire in the top floor of the OM, RAF S.S.H.B."
"Can you tell me the building number please"
"It's the s0ddin' Officers' Mess!!"
"Do you have the building number please ......"
Puts 'phone down and runs to guardroom...........
.... all ends happily (except for some tropical fish, who got smoke bubbled through their water
)
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That would be the "other" CFS then, Centralised Fire Section 
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Brampton Post code
Teeteringhead,
I know this refers to the Civil Ambulance service but relates in a way to your building number sketch.
Young Air Cadet died as a result. Ambulance was called to RAF Brampton but the post code plugged into the Ambulance Sat nav was RAF Wyton. All the post for Brampton came in through Wyton as the main administrative centre for 3 geographicaly seperate RAF Stations.
so much for 2222
Such a tragic outcome.
Drag
I know this refers to the Civil Ambulance service but relates in a way to your building number sketch.
Young Air Cadet died as a result. Ambulance was called to RAF Brampton but the post code plugged into the Ambulance Sat nav was RAF Wyton. All the post for Brampton came in through Wyton as the main administrative centre for 3 geographicaly seperate RAF Stations.
so much for 2222
Such a tragic outcome.
Drag
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Still no civil aid then......
OldSARGuy, you were pretty well bang on the money then as the OP a few weeks back. And GBZ offered the reason why nothing has been done to help people in the Somerset Levels - seems it all came down to money.
Pretty awful TV last night watching that lady baling out of her farm as the water rose - she seemed to have to do it all on her own. Couldn't help but cross my mind what a fat lot of good the civil authorities had been to her - least someone could have done was help her retreat (as it happened it looked like the farming community stuck together and did it themselves).
Thing is, as a servicemen you get paid anyway - surely wage costs are static.
There is a massive combined RN/RM/Army base at Yeovilton not even 20 miles away, can not more be done to help, really?
Pretty awful TV last night watching that lady baling out of her farm as the water rose - she seemed to have to do it all on her own. Couldn't help but cross my mind what a fat lot of good the civil authorities had been to her - least someone could have done was help her retreat (as it happened it looked like the farming community stuck together and did it themselves).
Thing is, as a servicemen you get paid anyway - surely wage costs are static.
There is a massive combined RN/RM/Army base at Yeovilton not even 20 miles away, can not more be done to help, really?
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Half Arsed effort......
Somerset Levels flooding crisis: scores evacuated as heavy rain overwhelms flood defences in village of Moorland - Telegraph
I actually feel sorry for the Royal Marines in this video. It seems like a half arsed effort, with a small lorry pitching up with a small section of junior rank RM applying a few sandbags in the bleak dead of night in heavy rain.
What a fry up. Granted only God almighty can stop the rain, but was that it, Britain's sole military effort?
Those Marines are in entirely the wrong rig by the way - if anyone is reading this that gives a fig, they should have some sort of skin protection, apparently there is some pretty nasty bacteria lurking now in the water.
I actually feel sorry for the Royal Marines in this video. It seems like a half arsed effort, with a small lorry pitching up with a small section of junior rank RM applying a few sandbags in the bleak dead of night in heavy rain.
What a fry up. Granted only God almighty can stop the rain, but was that it, Britain's sole military effort?
Those Marines are in entirely the wrong rig by the way - if anyone is reading this that gives a fig, they should have some sort of skin protection, apparently there is some pretty nasty bacteria lurking now in the water.
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I'm expecting a letter to the Times any day now from a certain Lt. Cdr. Lester May pontificating on how the RAF Helicopter assets should be instantly transferred to the Fleet Air Arm as they are the helicopter specialists in dealing with over water operations, and as such would have had the Somerset levels problem sorted weeks ago if they had been in charge of the airborne side of things.....
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Not yet Nutty
But he's still taking pot shots
Lester May Twitter Feed
PS. Check out who he follows ... there's a name we all know and love
But he's still taking pot shots
Lester May Twitter Feed
PS. Check out who he follows ... there's a name we all know and love
...shame there's not a RN Air Station 10 minutes flying time from Langport with a load of RN helicopters on it.....oh...tells me they've not been asked. Yeovs is very good at helping the community when it can.
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Not asked.
Face saving on the half of civil authorities? Don't want to look needy? If the RM are helping does it not mean requests for aid have been made? Would have thought the military would have gone in hard to help, to be honest.
Hangarshuffle
You've hit it squarely on the head. There is legislation called the Civil Continguencies Act 2004 which states that Local Authorities have to make provision for emergencies. So, if the Local Authorities call in the military then, unless it is SAR or MRT (that are designated Category 1 Responders and funded), they will have failed to discharge the duties legally required of them.
I hear that the Services' Regional Liaison Officers were told to go to the Command set up to deal with the floods, only to be effectively rejected by the leaders as they didn't want to be seen to be failing.
That is why the military wasn't used in their 'back up role' for the recent fire strikes and why they are unlikely to be used this weekend (and there are lots of us on standby to cover just in case they do call us).
If they call us it is an admission of failure and all the political and future public-funding issues that would go with it. The Local Authorities would have to pay for us and lose future funding lines from central government - a lose-lose situation. Plus, I am sure that the British Army are chomping at the bit to get involved to justify themselves for SDSR15.
This is not a Con-Dem issue as it was just as bad under the Bliar and Broon.
All in my opinion of course
LJ
You've hit it squarely on the head. There is legislation called the Civil Continguencies Act 2004 which states that Local Authorities have to make provision for emergencies. So, if the Local Authorities call in the military then, unless it is SAR or MRT (that are designated Category 1 Responders and funded), they will have failed to discharge the duties legally required of them.
I hear that the Services' Regional Liaison Officers were told to go to the Command set up to deal with the floods, only to be effectively rejected by the leaders as they didn't want to be seen to be failing.
That is why the military wasn't used in their 'back up role' for the recent fire strikes and why they are unlikely to be used this weekend (and there are lots of us on standby to cover just in case they do call us).
If they call us it is an admission of failure and all the political and future public-funding issues that would go with it. The Local Authorities would have to pay for us and lose future funding lines from central government - a lose-lose situation. Plus, I am sure that the British Army are chomping at the bit to get involved to justify themselves for SDSR15.
This is not a Con-Dem issue as it was just as bad under the Bliar and Broon.
All in my opinion of course
LJ