Red Arrows makeover for 2014.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: England's green and pleasant land
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hangarshuffle, you are now clearly revealing that you know neither the price nor value of things following that statement. Replacing with Typhoon?!! At around 10 times the cost per flying hour to operate, even reducing the Reds to 5 jets would be more expensive overall! Moreover, it would take 5 war jets away from where they would be better utilised. Seriously, lay off the pints of 'bitter & twisted' mate.
The reason RAFAT survives is that it delivers way more than the resource with which it is allocated. In recruitment, sales exports and professional prestige terms alone, the Reds punch well above their weight.
I'm personally glad that they are celebrating such an important milestone in 2014 and I'm confident they'll do it with a hefty amount of éclat!
The reason RAFAT survives is that it delivers way more than the resource with which it is allocated. In recruitment, sales exports and professional prestige terms alone, the Reds punch well above their weight.
I'm personally glad that they are celebrating such an important milestone in 2014 and I'm confident they'll do it with a hefty amount of éclat!
Hangarshuffle, you are now clearly revealing that you know neither the price nor value of things following that statement. Replacing with Typhoon?!! At around 10 times the cost per flying hour to operate, even reducing the Reds to 5 jets would be more expensive overall! Moreover, it would take 5 war jets away from where they would be better utilised. Seriously, lay off the pints of 'bitter & twisted' mate.
) it would give them something to do with all the Tranche 1 jets that are due to be retired........
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: raf
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.... Could be worse. They could be replaced with spare Tornado GR4's. Good luck trying to get 9 serviceable and the crowd may have to wait half an hour and need good eyesight as the GR4's turn through 180 degs at the end of each flypast.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 924
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Dearworthers.
Hang on a minute!! RAF Scampton only has one flying unit - the Dearworthers!! I've just read it!
RAF Scampton - RAF Station homepage
The old WingCO looks a bit puce - is he sat on a hedgehog or something?!
You mean to tell me they cant share?! When whole units and bases and squadrons closed or were binned, the RAF keep this little flying thing going?! Hell, that's a scam....Scampton!!
Fair point DWOCS about costs mate - seem I know as little as anyone else?!!
Its a fig leaf for our politicians to pretend all is well in the world - everyone knows this.
Its just in these defence cash strapped times Id be happier if it was a proper combat unit flying proper fighter planes.
Maybe they should do a display and turn the smoke on to form the shapes or forms of numbers, how much they cost, how much they bring in?!!
RAF Scampton - RAF Station homepage
The old WingCO looks a bit puce - is he sat on a hedgehog or something?!
You mean to tell me they cant share?! When whole units and bases and squadrons closed or were binned, the RAF keep this little flying thing going?! Hell, that's a scam....Scampton!!
Fair point DWOCS about costs mate - seem I know as little as anyone else?!!
Its a fig leaf for our politicians to pretend all is well in the world - everyone knows this.
Its just in these defence cash strapped times Id be happier if it was a proper combat unit flying proper fighter planes.
Maybe they should do a display and turn the smoke on to form the shapes or forms of numbers, how much they cost, how much they bring in?!!
Use Typhoons instead? Something new, better. Let the UK taxpayers see what their hard earned pays for.
Reduce the formation to say, five.
Paint them red, but keep them within the admin of a proper operational RAF squadron.
The only way forward, far as I can see. Sorry but I think the old way is past it.
Reduce the formation to say, five.
Paint them red, but keep them within the admin of a proper operational RAF squadron.
The only way forward, far as I can see. Sorry but I think the old way is past it.
It seems that your concern is that the Red Arrows reduce the operational effectiveness of the RAF. If so, then your proposed solution would have a direct, negative effect upon the operational effectiveness of the RAF several orders of magnitude greater than continuing to operate an RAFAT with nine Hawk T1s...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At a time when it's becoming ever more difficult to man the FTSs, it does seem incongruous that the RAF still has a pool of 9 potential QFIs in the Reds. We have to face the fact that with all the cutbacks, the RAF is dropping below a self-sustaining level for its current format; something has to give.
DH,
Merge RAFAT with The Ton and fly a simpler display requiring less aircraft and less intensive training (Patrouille Suisse style?). Enables a coherent use and conservation of remaining T1 'life' and would generate appreciable savings in Operating Costs. Oh and Scampton can finally be put out of its misery....
Merge RAFAT with The Ton and fly a simpler display requiring less aircraft and less intensive training (Patrouille Suisse style?). Enables a coherent use and conservation of remaining T1 'life' and would generate appreciable savings in Operating Costs. Oh and Scampton can finally be put out of its misery....
"The time has come," the Walrus said!
It was always on the cards! Even in my time in the MOD it was included as a line in the annual LTC review. It would now appear inevitable as the RAF shrinks to almost a token force. It can no longer be seen as an essential recruitment tool as the requirement for pilots is slim to say the least! Furthermore, how much longer will FJ pilots be required to fly in close formation? Is it a necessary skill in this day and age?
If we can't afford to operate two aircraft carriers then how can we afford the Reds? I know they will be sadly missed by all the small kids, many of whom have never seen a low flying aircraft. A great shame but a sign of the times!
It was always on the cards! Even in my time in the MOD it was included as a line in the annual LTC review. It would now appear inevitable as the RAF shrinks to almost a token force. It can no longer be seen as an essential recruitment tool as the requirement for pilots is slim to say the least! Furthermore, how much longer will FJ pilots be required to fly in close formation? Is it a necessary skill in this day and age?
If we can't afford to operate two aircraft carriers then how can we afford the Reds? I know they will be sadly missed by all the small kids, many of whom have never seen a low flying aircraft. A great shame but a sign of the times!
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: England
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Evalu8ter,
I think you'd be rather surprised at what's in store for scampton over the coming years. It fits into the new employment model rather well...
Why bin the Reds? It's hardly costing a fortune and let's face it, we are not exactly screaming out for pilots at the moment. Although it's not directly measured, I think it's fair to say that most kids become incredibly excited when they see the reds up and about. A powerful tool.
The same can't be said for the Vulcan. Very badly run project and borderline dangerous. Get rid!!!
I think you'd be rather surprised at what's in store for scampton over the coming years. It fits into the new employment model rather well...
Why bin the Reds? It's hardly costing a fortune and let's face it, we are not exactly screaming out for pilots at the moment. Although it's not directly measured, I think it's fair to say that most kids become incredibly excited when they see the reds up and about. A powerful tool.
The same can't be said for the Vulcan. Very badly run project and borderline dangerous. Get rid!!!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PP, that's just the point; in certain areas the RAF is screaming out for pilots, especially with the right attributes necessary for QFI. There doesn't seem to be enough of a pool to feed both QFI and RAFAT.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Whyte House
Age: 95
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why bin the Reds? It's hardly costing a fortune and let's face it, we are not exactly screaming out for pilots at the moment. Although it's not directly measured, I think it's fair to say that most kids become incredibly excited when they see the reds up and about. A powerful tool.
The same can't be said for the Vulcan. Very badly run project and borderline dangerous. Get rid!!!
The same can't be said for the Vulcan. Very badly run project and borderline dangerous. Get rid!!!
Not sure what difference it makes anyway, it won't alter my opinion of what their dad thinks the defence budget should be spent on, how big said budget should be, or which way I'll vote next year.
I certainly wouldn't encourage either of them to join up either. I'd support them if they did, of course, but for now I'm 'directing' their interest elsewhere - which isn't too hard a task in any case.
Personally I'd rather see XD818 flying again!
Originally Posted by gr4techie
.... Could be worse. They could be replaced with spare Tornado GR4's. Good luck trying to get 9 serviceable and the crowd may have to wait half an hour and need good eyesight as the GR4's turn through 180 degs at the end of each flypast.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: England
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DH
I don't think culling RAFAT will fix the lack of QFI issue although, I do see your point. The drawdown of the GR4 fleet will surely offer more pilots up to the QFI world.
Bottom line is that it's not RAFAT's fault, I'd be more likely to lay blame at the dreadful state of affairs IV Sqn have been forced into under an appalling contract!
Bottom line is that it's not RAFAT's fault, I'd be more likely to lay blame at the dreadful state of affairs IV Sqn have been forced into under an appalling contract!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PP
When is the GR4 drawdown? There seems to be some slippage on that! The main point though is whether the GR4 pilots offered upto CFS have the requisite flying hours and experience to pass the initial QFI selection hurdle - there's not a lot of (quality) flying going on in that world at the moment. If not, will they have enough for the Red's? And if not - who will?
Your comment about IV is most perceptive.
When is the GR4 drawdown? There seems to be some slippage on that! The main point though is whether the GR4 pilots offered upto CFS have the requisite flying hours and experience to pass the initial QFI selection hurdle - there's not a lot of (quality) flying going on in that world at the moment. If not, will they have enough for the Red's? And if not - who will?
Your comment about IV is most perceptive.
Gentleman Aviator
My guess would be 4 years and counting ...... pull out all the stops, cannibalising the fleet, to keep a 9-ship for the 100th Birthday (if we get that far ) - then Endex Reds.
) - then Endex Reds.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,974
Received 2,880 Likes
on
1,231 Posts
And to misquote Blue Peter
And here are some we prepared earlier
Reduced to Produce: End of the RAF's Tornado F3 Interceptors | Urban Ghosts |
Mothballed Tornado GR1 and GR4 Await Scrapping at Shawbury | Urban Ghosts |
And here are some we prepared earlier
Reduced to Produce: End of the RAF's Tornado F3 Interceptors | Urban Ghosts |
Mothballed Tornado GR1 and GR4 Await Scrapping at Shawbury | Urban Ghosts |
