Blue Parrot
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Look at all you sad bar stewards on PPRuNe on Xmas Day!!!!!!
The three lights on the starboard windscreen arch were, indeed, the 'Radio Altimeter Limit Lights' to give them their official name, suitably positioned such that the Nav, in his starboard offset seat, could monitor exactly what the GIF was up to when breaking the low flying limits authorised! Nothing to do with Terrain Following - that was done by Mk 1 eyeball! Of course, since the Rad Alt would unlock below 50 feet they were bugger all use on a day-to-day basis!
Only kidding! Now back to the bar!
Merry Xmas from this sad bar steward!
Bloggs!
The three lights on the starboard windscreen arch were, indeed, the 'Radio Altimeter Limit Lights' to give them their official name, suitably positioned such that the Nav, in his starboard offset seat, could monitor exactly what the GIF was up to when breaking the low flying limits authorised! Nothing to do with Terrain Following - that was done by Mk 1 eyeball! Of course, since the Rad Alt would unlock below 50 feet they were bugger all use on a day-to-day basis!
Only kidding! Now back to the bar!
Merry Xmas from this sad bar steward!
Bloggs!
I was the last Blue Parrot project manager. Albeit briefly as I inherited the final throes from my boss, who retired. What I remember was the dismay in MoD(PE) and at Ferranti over the seeming haste with which the Buccaneer was withdrawn, and the lack of forward planning to replace certain roles.
At least a year later, OR(Air) came cap in hand with the best spec they could think of for a radar to fit in a Tornado variant, which was planned to carry out a key role. One answer was you can have 50-odd ex-RN Blue Fox Mk2s, being removed from SHAR (too secret and devious to sell to Johnny foreigner – and many approached us). Although major mods would be needed to take, for example, the yoke. OR were over the moon at the thought of this freebie, then the penny dropped. “If this is the best we can think of, and the RN are replacing it, WTF are they getting?” Blue Vixen. Plan ditched. BF would have given them many years excellent service.
At least a year later, OR(Air) came cap in hand with the best spec they could think of for a radar to fit in a Tornado variant, which was planned to carry out a key role. One answer was you can have 50-odd ex-RN Blue Fox Mk2s, being removed from SHAR (too secret and devious to sell to Johnny foreigner – and many approached us). Although major mods would be needed to take, for example, the yoke. OR were over the moon at the thought of this freebie, then the penny dropped. “If this is the best we can think of, and the RN are replacing it, WTF are they getting?” Blue Vixen. Plan ditched. BF would have given them many years excellent service.
The original standard of rad alt had 2 range settings, high (0-5000 ft) and low (0-500 ft). On the control panel the pilot could set the desired range and the limit lights according to whatever SOP was in force. When above the setting, the amber light was on, when at the limit the green light was on and when below the limit the red light was on. The nav had no idea what limit the pilot had set and so if you were flying with a 'twitchy' nav, especially on a check ride, a suitable limit could be set such that the red light never came on - or so I have been told .....
This rad alt worked perfectly well below 50 ft although it did overread when more than about 30 deg of bank was applied. The overwater SOP was to set the baro alt to read the ame as the rad alt and then you had an extra height reference when at extreme bank angles.
These rad alts would interfer with each other when in close formation if on the same range setting and thus the night/IMC low level SOP was, from memory, for the leader to set HIGH with the limit lights at 500 ft and for the wingmen to set LOW with the limit lights at 400 ft. The later rad alts did not suffer from this interference but I had left the squadron when they came in so I am not sure what the SOP became, although I did fly the trial and can vouch for their functionality.
This rad alt worked perfectly well below 50 ft although it did overread when more than about 30 deg of bank was applied. The overwater SOP was to set the baro alt to read the ame as the rad alt and then you had an extra height reference when at extreme bank angles.
These rad alts would interfer with each other when in close formation if on the same range setting and thus the night/IMC low level SOP was, from memory, for the leader to set HIGH with the limit lights at 500 ft and for the wingmen to set LOW with the limit lights at 400 ft. The later rad alts did not suffer from this interference but I had left the squadron when they came in so I am not sure what the SOP became, although I did fly the trial and can vouch for their functionality.
LOMCEVAK, I know of many 'twitchy' Navs who have lived to tell many a 'twitchy' story in the bar after an OLF sortie. There are many old and bold pilots still alive today recounting stories of their 'wirings' but there are an equal number of Navs who are still owed a few 'thankyou' beers.
Darvan,
You raise a valid point that good navs make a huge contribution to safety during low flying, especially OLF, and I will be the first person to acknowledge that. Therefore, let me expand on my somewhat light-hearted comment about 'twitchy' navs.
The problem came mainly over the sea when we would aim to fly at the minimum height (usually 100 ft combat ready, 200 ft non-CR when day VMC) with that height set on the limit lights. Therefore, you aimed to fly 'in the green' but a descent by only 10 ft would illuminate the red light. Typically, a pilot would see this and make a smooth correction and, if corrected promptly, most navs would say nothing. However, some would twitch instantly when the red came on with an alarming shout. This took no account of the other cues (visual appreciation of height, rate of movement of the rad alt needle, baro alt) and was actually a distraction and, if on a check ride, some would criticise harshly for 'breaking a limit'. The other side of the coin was that when in a turn the rad alt would overread and the amber light inevitably was on regardless of the height. These navs would say nothing because they had little appreciation of the flightpath of the aircraft and just called low heights (red light) based on an SOP. In fairness, very few navs did behave like this but there were a few.
You raise a valid point that good navs make a huge contribution to safety during low flying, especially OLF, and I will be the first person to acknowledge that. Therefore, let me expand on my somewhat light-hearted comment about 'twitchy' navs.
The problem came mainly over the sea when we would aim to fly at the minimum height (usually 100 ft combat ready, 200 ft non-CR when day VMC) with that height set on the limit lights. Therefore, you aimed to fly 'in the green' but a descent by only 10 ft would illuminate the red light. Typically, a pilot would see this and make a smooth correction and, if corrected promptly, most navs would say nothing. However, some would twitch instantly when the red came on with an alarming shout. This took no account of the other cues (visual appreciation of height, rate of movement of the rad alt needle, baro alt) and was actually a distraction and, if on a check ride, some would criticise harshly for 'breaking a limit'. The other side of the coin was that when in a turn the rad alt would overread and the amber light inevitably was on regardless of the height. These navs would say nothing because they had little appreciation of the flightpath of the aircraft and just called low heights (red light) based on an SOP. In fairness, very few navs did behave like this but there were a few.
Be interested to hear more on Blue Parrot as worked on a trials machine XV337 in the late 70's at Boscombe as an apprentice and seemed to recall it spent most the time in the bay being fixed and very little time in the aircraft then !
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LOMCEVAK,
You make a rather too sweeping statement here:
and, by suggestion, promote your opinion that amongst the good navs there were also some poor navs!
I don't doubt or disagree with that fact, however, I can tell you that with 4 tours and 13 years on the Bucc (and 2 tours and 5 years on the GR1) with tours as an OCU instructor, an airborne supervisor and checking officer on both types and as a member of the ACE Taceval flight checker team with many hours sitting in the back of various NATO types, as a navigator, I have flown with many good pilots AND many many poor pilots too, some of whom failed to acknowledge and understand the concept of crew cooperation!
By your very 'joking' comment:
you display traits of the latter group and you breach everything that was sacred in the Buccaneer force - the teamwork and acknowledged togetherness that made the Buccaneer and its crews so operationally effective! It was a team machine and, in my 13 years, there was never ever any suggestion that the pilot was 'in charge' and the navigator was subservient to that role!
If you DID choose to set the rad alt limiter to a different setting than that declared to your navigator then you should be ashamed of yourself. If, on the other hand, it is mere PPRuNe bravado hidden behind your anonymity then it is foolhardy of you to depict the Buccaneer force as less than safety conscious!
Have a good Hogmanay when it comes!
Now, with that off my chest, I need another dram!
Bloggs
You make a rather too sweeping statement here:
You raise a valid point that good navs make a huge contribution to safety during low flying
I don't doubt or disagree with that fact, however, I can tell you that with 4 tours and 13 years on the Bucc (and 2 tours and 5 years on the GR1) with tours as an OCU instructor, an airborne supervisor and checking officer on both types and as a member of the ACE Taceval flight checker team with many hours sitting in the back of various NATO types, as a navigator, I have flown with many good pilots AND many many poor pilots too, some of whom failed to acknowledge and understand the concept of crew cooperation!
By your very 'joking' comment:
The nav had no idea what limit the pilot had set
If you DID choose to set the rad alt limiter to a different setting than that declared to your navigator then you should be ashamed of yourself. If, on the other hand, it is mere PPRuNe bravado hidden behind your anonymity then it is foolhardy of you to depict the Buccaneer force as less than safety conscious!
Have a good Hogmanay when it comes!
Now, with that off my chest, I need another dram!
Bloggs
Fg Off Bloggs,
Oh dear, I sense that I have hit on a raw nerve and, as I said in my last post, a light-hearted comment has been taken far too seriously and if I have caused any offense I apologise. My posts started off as a technical discussion about the rad alt and now have drifted into the realms of CRM.
My comment about good navs did indeed imply that there were also poor navs, and I wholeheartedly agree that there were and are good and bad pilots. And, unfortunately, in both cockpits there were a few crew members whose CRM was poor. Anyone who claims otherwise would be very naive.
I would ask you to re-read the final sentence of my previous post: "In fairness, very few navs did behave like this but there were a few." Perhaps I should have said very few. However, I do not think that this comment casts any aspersions on the Buccaneer force and I hope that those who know me would acknowledge that I am the first person to uphold the professionalism and crew co-operation that existed in the Buccaneer force. Also, I do not think that anything that I wrote implies that the pilot 'was in charge'.
Did I ever deliberately mis-set the limit lights, NO. Do I know of anyone who did, not for certain. Was it talked about in the crewroom, certainly, albeit in a joking way.
I am not sure if we ever flew together but, if not, I genuinely wish that we had. Have a great New Year.
L
Oh dear, I sense that I have hit on a raw nerve and, as I said in my last post, a light-hearted comment has been taken far too seriously and if I have caused any offense I apologise. My posts started off as a technical discussion about the rad alt and now have drifted into the realms of CRM.
My comment about good navs did indeed imply that there were also poor navs, and I wholeheartedly agree that there were and are good and bad pilots. And, unfortunately, in both cockpits there were a few crew members whose CRM was poor. Anyone who claims otherwise would be very naive.
I would ask you to re-read the final sentence of my previous post: "In fairness, very few navs did behave like this but there were a few." Perhaps I should have said very few. However, I do not think that this comment casts any aspersions on the Buccaneer force and I hope that those who know me would acknowledge that I am the first person to uphold the professionalism and crew co-operation that existed in the Buccaneer force. Also, I do not think that anything that I wrote implies that the pilot 'was in charge'.
Did I ever deliberately mis-set the limit lights, NO. Do I know of anyone who did, not for certain. Was it talked about in the crewroom, certainly, albeit in a joking way.
I am not sure if we ever flew together but, if not, I genuinely wish that we had. Have a great New Year.
L
Last edited by LOMCEVAK; 31st Dec 2013 at 11:37.
I remember one particularly short navigator who burned out several seat motors due to monitoring the limit lights.
If he could see the lights he couldn't reach some of his switches and if he could reach his switches he couldn't see the lights.
Nice geezer though
If he could see the lights he couldn't reach some of his switches and if he could reach his switches he couldn't see the lights.
Nice geezer though
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LOMCEVAK,
Thanks for the PM and I trust that you, by now, have seen my response. Yep, we flew together but you were, at the time, a mere stude on 237 - but boy look at you now!!!!
I hope you understand that I had to speak up for the Navigator's Union but no hard feelings, I hope, and have a great New Year!
Bloggs
Thanks for the PM and I trust that you, by now, have seen my response. Yep, we flew together but you were, at the time, a mere stude on 237 - but boy look at you now!!!!
I hope you understand that I had to speak up for the Navigator's Union but no hard feelings, I hope, and have a great New Year!
Bloggs
Thread Starter
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Thanks.
Many thanks for the "informative" and spirited replies. To digress a bit, and pay tribute to a special breed of men. Early 1976 I think Ark had been hove to somewhere of Halifax, Nova Scotia for two days in a force 10/11. Flight deck had been out of bounds for that period. Hands to flying stations piped around 1700hrs, weather had backed off for a short period. A Bucc had been left behind, I think NAS Oceana and had to be recovered for the trip home. I was part of the see on team. Waves were breaking over the bow and the deck team moved back 100ft to save getting to wet! Deck lights out, apart from centre lights, seeing the stern rising/falling by 20/30ft. Nothing, then red and green wing tip lights, and then the horrible screaming of Speys on full throttle, then THUMP", more noise, deck lights on. Hook up, airbrake open, wings folded and taxi up forward. Bucc lashed down, ladders up. Crew out of the jet, a "Good evening" and of down the mess for beer and uckers! So to all the Buccs WAFU and CRAB aircrew a happy new year, in my eyes a special group of men!
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ZH875...
I remember him! I thought he was trying to look over the front seat bloke's left shoulder to check the RAD ALT indicator itself?
I believe I did the seat 'indies' on both those rear seat changes. If he'd burnt out another motor he was advised that HE would be doing the next seat change.
I agree: one of the good guys!
HNY to all...
I remember him! I thought he was trying to look over the front seat bloke's left shoulder to check the RAD ALT indicator itself?
I believe I did the seat 'indies' on both those rear seat changes. If he'd burnt out another motor he was advised that HE would be doing the next seat change.
I agree: one of the good guys!
HNY to all...
