MT big brother AKA Trimble
No the truth is that I was working on a UOR and had to get some 2* signatures on the RTS before they went home.
No excuse really....
And if the MT wagon was anything like the wretched things I recall from 10 years ago, I certainly wouldn't have wished to drive it at such a speed. Although I've certainly driven at over 140 mph on a motorway.....
....in Germany on a derestricted Autobahn. In a well-maintained car.
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Ok guys, it's a long time since I left and the contract out of the "white" fleet had happened prior to my leaving. Now the original contractor operator had a fleet of vehicles that exceeded fifty thousand in number. Their business model was/is heavily dependant on maintaining the resale value of the vehicles when they are returned at the point specified, that point may be age or use related, it was very clear from the start that the vehicles would be subjected to a rigorous examination upon return, a cracked wheel trim on an Astra, for example, resulted in a bill for £70 (1997 price), the price of a complete set.
Now can anyone tell me if this "spy in the cab" was installed at the instigation of the RAF, or was it at the instigation of the contractor? Of course the contractor may have made a case on safety grounds to the service, who then funded the system out of public funds, the contractor gets his vehicle usage closely monitored and the customer has funded it for him.
It would be illuminating (for me anyway) to see a breakdown of the end of contract damage costs over the years.
PM
Now can anyone tell me if this "spy in the cab" was installed at the instigation of the RAF, or was it at the instigation of the contractor? Of course the contractor may have made a case on safety grounds to the service, who then funded the system out of public funds, the contractor gets his vehicle usage closely monitored and the customer has funded it for him.
It would be illuminating (for me anyway) to see a breakdown of the end of contract damage costs over the years.
PM
Surely the point of installing a costly system like this is to publicise it to modify driving behaviour? But as its existence comes as a surprise to many of those being monitored it seems in fact to be being used as a weaselly gotcha.
Although I've certainly driven at over 140 mph on a motorway.... in Germany on a derestricted Autobahn. In a well-maintained car.
Fine, accepting that of course the maintenance of a car is niether here nor there when a half asleep Polish truck driver veers across his lane. No amount of maintenance is helping you to react to that 60 mph moving roadblock when the closing speed is now 80mph and you only have 300 metres to react. On only two lanes.
140mph is ludicrous, given what other drivers might do. Doesn't matter what the limit is.
(Besides which, Autobahns aren't derestricted, they have an advisory limit of 100kph and the Polizei will stop you if well in excess of that and advise you of your error, they'll also reserve the right to fine you if your speed was excessive to the point of dangerous).
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He didn't say autobahns are deristricted, he said it was on a derestricted autobahn.
Many are derestricted.
And although the advisory limit is 130 kmh, not a poncey 100kmh, exceeding it is NOT illegal. Sensibly the Germans allow discretion - you know, treating people like adults.
It certainly isn't "well over 5 years since it was introduced" either. The minibus I drove on the A1 in 2009 certainly wasn't equipped with an electronic member of the green party.
Many are derestricted.
And although the advisory limit is 130 kmh, not a poncey 100kmh, exceeding it is NOT illegal. Sensibly the Germans allow discretion - you know, treating people like adults.
It certainly isn't "well over 5 years since it was introduced" either. The minibus I drove on the A1 in 2009 certainly wasn't equipped with an electronic member of the green party.
Laarbruch72, I can assure you that many, many stretches of Autobahn indeed remain unrestricted! Neither is there an 'advisory' 100 Kph limit. However, if you have an accident at above 130 kph, you have to prove that speed was not a factor.
The design requirements for Autobahns are vastly more demanding than the requirements for UK motorways. Radius of curves, subsoil stability, surface condition and the number of lanes lead to speed limits where engineering considerations require them rather than by the opinion of some nannying politician.
Angela Merkel has been very forthright about slapping down any weenie-greenies who want to introduce blanket speed limits - a refreshing, commonsense and adult way to treat the population.
The design requirements for Autobahns are vastly more demanding than the requirements for UK motorways. Radius of curves, subsoil stability, surface condition and the number of lanes lead to speed limits where engineering considerations require them rather than by the opinion of some nannying politician.
Angela Merkel has been very forthright about slapping down any weenie-greenies who want to introduce blanket speed limits - a refreshing, commonsense and adult way to treat the population.
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And I'd be very interested to compare motorway vs autobahn death/serious injury stats for accident per mile, along with contributing factors e.g. speed, weather, etc.
As far as having nanny in the car with you - good. I certainly don't want to be on the recieving end of a knackered liney racing an MT wagon down the road to get back to base so he can go home for the weekend.
FWIW - i was sent to Leconfield to do HGV, I got as far as " the military are exempt from tacho law (at the time) and as such can exceed driving hrs."
I was not going to put myself in that position - so I CT'd myself.
which suprised the hell out of the army......
I won't pretend to come over all holier than thou and preach I have never sped, as i'd be lying badly.
I did drive and ride stupidly - fortunately I was lucky enought to never get caught/in a speed related accident. Certain rules have been made into law precisely because people have had the it will never happen to me attitude, firms made people drive for far too long.
HMG is responsible for your arse, just as much as you are. If you (generalising now) keep driving like berks and hooning about like Max, you can expect them to take steps.
it might be nice for them to REWARD some good and sensible driving, say arrange a beercall ( with drivers laid on to get you home, obviously) for the section with the best score in 12 months.
as to 106 mph - what would civpol do to you, before your boss gets hold of you, after he has to go to court to try and be a character witness.
If you are not prepared to take all the consequences of speeding then the answer is simple, ease of the gas.
Most modern cars come with an MPG meter - if you switch to the live one you can see how miserly you can drive, if you spend £50 per week on fuel commmuting, and you can eke that out to do the same miles in £40 then every couple of months you can have a free night out paid for by sensible driving - and your journey will not have taken much longer.
if you want to go fast - take a track day or two.
I shall relinquish the pulpit now, and stop preaching at you.
but if you choose to ignore everything I have said then do me a favour, please please please, don't come to Devon. I have no wish to be involved in, witness, or be delayed by your untimely death due to driving like a pillock.
drive safe now -
As far as having nanny in the car with you - good. I certainly don't want to be on the recieving end of a knackered liney racing an MT wagon down the road to get back to base so he can go home for the weekend.
FWIW - i was sent to Leconfield to do HGV, I got as far as " the military are exempt from tacho law (at the time) and as such can exceed driving hrs."
I was not going to put myself in that position - so I CT'd myself.
which suprised the hell out of the army......
I won't pretend to come over all holier than thou and preach I have never sped, as i'd be lying badly.
I did drive and ride stupidly - fortunately I was lucky enought to never get caught/in a speed related accident. Certain rules have been made into law precisely because people have had the it will never happen to me attitude, firms made people drive for far too long.
HMG is responsible for your arse, just as much as you are. If you (generalising now) keep driving like berks and hooning about like Max, you can expect them to take steps.
it might be nice for them to REWARD some good and sensible driving, say arrange a beercall ( with drivers laid on to get you home, obviously) for the section with the best score in 12 months.
as to 106 mph - what would civpol do to you, before your boss gets hold of you, after he has to go to court to try and be a character witness.
If you are not prepared to take all the consequences of speeding then the answer is simple, ease of the gas.
Most modern cars come with an MPG meter - if you switch to the live one you can see how miserly you can drive, if you spend £50 per week on fuel commmuting, and you can eke that out to do the same miles in £40 then every couple of months you can have a free night out paid for by sensible driving - and your journey will not have taken much longer.
if you want to go fast - take a track day or two.
I shall relinquish the pulpit now, and stop preaching at you.
but if you choose to ignore everything I have said then do me a favour, please please please, don't come to Devon. I have no wish to be involved in, witness, or be delayed by your untimely death due to driving like a pillock.
drive safe now -
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Yep. you can -
and how long till they rewrite the ECU code to do the equivalent EUMS download - though not on a cassette tape
from the car ECU.
all vehicles would end up with a 12 month loop of speeds and rev's data and link this into the diagnostics port with a coded downloader.
you sign for the car - go for it and give it back.
next Service the car goes in and the fitter plugs in the data unit, sucks all the data out to the MTO's computer.
it cross references to driver and you end up in the same position
and how long till they rewrite the ECU code to do the equivalent EUMS download - though not on a cassette tape
from the car ECU.all vehicles would end up with a 12 month loop of speeds and rev's data and link this into the diagnostics port with a coded downloader.
you sign for the car - go for it and give it back.
next Service the car goes in and the fitter plugs in the data unit, sucks all the data out to the MTO's computer.
it cross references to driver and you end up in the same position
This MT fleet telematic system seems quite reasonable to me and shouldn't cause any issues to normal drivers. But it will identify those who flout the law - and quite rightly so too.
As for GPS jammers, I've occasionally encountered them on motorways when some white van man has one fitted, which has then confused my SatNav. In the US, one idiot was fined $32000 for using one:
GPS jammer costs driver $32,000 after interfering with plane signals - Telegraph
Serves the bugger right and that should serve as a warning to others...
As for GPS jammers, I've occasionally encountered them on motorways when some white van man has one fitted, which has then confused my SatNav. In the US, one idiot was fined $32000 for using one:
GPS jammer costs driver $32,000 after interfering with plane signals - Telegraph
Serves the bugger right and that should serve as a warning to others...
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Fleet telematics is different to unique driver telematics. If you ask retail insurance companies of the benefit, they'll say they don't lose out financially and that it does show some benefit in terms of high speed accidents among young males. We are becoming used to the idea of the black box, soon, I have little doubt that we will have to have one and pay road use related tax. Fleet managers won't talk of saving lives and increasing road safety. The RAF is self insured so it wants to keep the lease costs down, and these things will be a condition of that, first and foremost, lets be clear about this. Telematics monitors a few vehicle KPIs, such as harsh acceleration away from, or harsh breaking into stop lines with a view to looking at tyre and brake wear, etc.
Max Power magazine had a driver programme back in the day which made a tangible difference; it involved real people and took the best part of 2 years to evolve and roll out. However this is implemented, and whoever is responsible for it, I wonder if they know that if saving lives IS the genuinely most important factor, it isn't an efficient way of doing it? Once you establish and accept that, then this becomes little more than ammunition for those who receive a quite pointless "management e-mail".
If a fault is identified, and if it isn't rectified properly, this is just yet more annoying remote nannying. If a bad driver is identified and who then goes to plough into a full bus stop, then what? Some savvy solicitor will simply ask, "If the MoD does claim a duty of care, why did it not choose to retrain this unsafe driver that it clearly knew about or report the matter to external agencies in order to prevent this calamity?". Unless there is a proper rectification programme in place, why do it? I am not anti road safety by the way. I am a (back in the day) ex-mil trained car and ye olde HGV instructor (long story zzz) and DSA qual'd bike instructor. I too, have done my time hooning about in mil cars and looking back, it's nothing to be proud about.
But in the old days, there were proper 'Deltas' (for those who remember them), master drivers, nasty MTOs and RAFP Flt Sgts who had real impact and authority. Now? Well, Ford is trialing internal accoustic mods to allow conversations to be linked to fleet telematics.. now that IS scary and you can understand why some people mutter "thin end of the wedge" under their breath. Anyway, none of this applies to me - Alfa enthusiasts prefer flair, panache and presence to prosaic key performance indicators. Still safer now mind, maybe that's just age though. C Hinecap, nice to see you back.
Max Power magazine had a driver programme back in the day which made a tangible difference; it involved real people and took the best part of 2 years to evolve and roll out. However this is implemented, and whoever is responsible for it, I wonder if they know that if saving lives IS the genuinely most important factor, it isn't an efficient way of doing it? Once you establish and accept that, then this becomes little more than ammunition for those who receive a quite pointless "management e-mail".
If a fault is identified, and if it isn't rectified properly, this is just yet more annoying remote nannying. If a bad driver is identified and who then goes to plough into a full bus stop, then what? Some savvy solicitor will simply ask, "If the MoD does claim a duty of care, why did it not choose to retrain this unsafe driver that it clearly knew about or report the matter to external agencies in order to prevent this calamity?". Unless there is a proper rectification programme in place, why do it? I am not anti road safety by the way. I am a (back in the day) ex-mil trained car and ye olde HGV instructor (long story zzz) and DSA qual'd bike instructor. I too, have done my time hooning about in mil cars and looking back, it's nothing to be proud about.
But in the old days, there were proper 'Deltas' (for those who remember them), master drivers, nasty MTOs and RAFP Flt Sgts who had real impact and authority. Now? Well, Ford is trialing internal accoustic mods to allow conversations to be linked to fleet telematics.. now that IS scary and you can understand why some people mutter "thin end of the wedge" under their breath. Anyway, none of this applies to me - Alfa enthusiasts prefer flair, panache and presence to prosaic key performance indicators. Still safer now mind, maybe that's just age though. C Hinecap, nice to see you back.
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FWIW - i was sent to Leconfield to do HGV, I got as far as " the military are exempt from tacho law (at the time) and as such can exceed driving hrs."
That would be the "crown exemption" it allowed such things as driving hours, certain construction and use regulations and drivers age limits to be applied to suit service needs.
In my day in the RAF drivers hours were laid down in the JSP and were probably only exceeded during the build up to GW1 and Corporate, which if managed could be carried out safely.
In the lead up to GW1 a vehicle left our unit at 0730ish and was involved in a fatal RTC some 3 miles from base, a car had crossed onto the wrong side of the road and gone under the front of a fully loaded artic, the car driver had just completed a 12hr night shift and was driving home. We (the RAF) could demonstrate the Cpl MTD was fully rested and complying with the drivers hours regulations, as far as rest time and previous days hours.
As an aside, the vehicle was fully loaded with BL755 cbu's which sharpened the attention of the first police officer to attend.
PM
That would be the "crown exemption" it allowed such things as driving hours, certain construction and use regulations and drivers age limits to be applied to suit service needs.
In my day in the RAF drivers hours were laid down in the JSP and were probably only exceeded during the build up to GW1 and Corporate, which if managed could be carried out safely.
In the lead up to GW1 a vehicle left our unit at 0730ish and was involved in a fatal RTC some 3 miles from base, a car had crossed onto the wrong side of the road and gone under the front of a fully loaded artic, the car driver had just completed a 12hr night shift and was driving home. We (the RAF) could demonstrate the Cpl MTD was fully rested and complying with the drivers hours regulations, as far as rest time and previous days hours.
As an aside, the vehicle was fully loaded with BL755 cbu's which sharpened the attention of the first police officer to attend.
PM
It certainly isn't "well over 5 years since it was introduced" either. The minibus I drove on the A1 in 2009 certainly wasn't equipped with an electronic member of the green party.
During my last tour overseas working for a EUCOM element in Germany, local military drivers would regularly shuttle us to the airport - they were limited to 200 km/h on the Autobahn. . If 'Transportation' couldn't meet requests, local taxi firms would be contracted in. On my last journey, the taxi driver reached 230 km/h!
As I've mentioned before, reduction of RAF footprint and reduction of SFA availability under NEM could result more RTW RTAs - as SP commute longer distances from their (affordable) own homes . DASA did some interesting work on this in 2006 and came up with some pretty shocking predictions - basically, double-digit fatalities expected. Should the CoC also consider offering this kit to private vehicles, thus exercising a broader duty of care?
As I've mentioned before, reduction of RAF footprint and reduction of SFA availability under NEM could result more RTW RTAs - as SP commute longer distances from their (affordable) own homes . DASA did some interesting work on this in 2006 and came up with some pretty shocking predictions - basically, double-digit fatalities expected. Should the CoC also consider offering this kit to private vehicles, thus exercising a broader duty of care?
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Sad to see this expensive kit installed in MT vehicles. We are the Armed Forces; not the Brownies!
A higher element of risk is surely endemic in Service Personnel. That's what they want in life.
What next, speed restrictions on the Typhoon, just in case one might get into high spirits and get a bit carried away.
Also, what's all this Health and Safety crap with Liney's wearing a Hi Viz vest over DPM uniform...
Bring back the old days!
A higher element of risk is surely endemic in Service Personnel. That's what they want in life.
What next, speed restrictions on the Typhoon, just in case one might get into high spirits and get a bit carried away.
Also, what's all this Health and Safety crap with Liney's wearing a Hi Viz vest over DPM uniform...
Bring back the old days!
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This is not an "RAF" thing, it's an MOD thing.
Try getting anything done about fleets and equipment these days and you need to look at the green side of the triangle.
The internal lights system is NOT monitored but the cars are tracked wherever they go.
This has resulted in at least two (probably more) prosecutions for fraudulent journey claims.
Try getting anything done about fleets and equipment these days and you need to look at the green side of the triangle.
The internal lights system is NOT monitored but the cars are tracked wherever they go.
This has resulted in at least two (probably more) prosecutions for fraudulent journey claims.
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Whilst not excusing criminal activities, and that does not include speeding in my not so humble opinion, one wonders how much those 2 (or more) fraudulent journey claims cost - in relation to equipment through to prosecution.
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Alas it seams that removing human input or thought is where car design is heading. From windscreen wipers that turn themselves on, automatic headlights, self dimming rear view mirrors, lane control, self parking etc it's only heading one way. Google have been beta testing a self driving car for the past year. No doubt in the future we will salute the reduction in driver attributed accidents. And laudable that will be but I can't help but think we are loosing something here. The most enjoyable car I have driven had no power steering, no assisted braking and suspension which lent itself more to the horse and cart era.
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A higher element of risk is surely endemic in Service Personnel. That's what they want in life.
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CH,
You make a good point, but let's not kid ourselves. This 'virtue' isn't driven by a warm hearted desire to save lives - rather, hard nosed rational based on punitive updating of corporate manslaughter legislation in 2008. OOT has a point in that people who gravitate towards the military do have a different perception to risk and loss (not a more cavalier and irresponsible attitude, just a different one).
Tom/Whenur,
Don't speak too soon, the revised legislation (above) also compels employers to ensure that even private vehicles used for business purposes aren't exempt. I imagine this wouldn't apply to ops, but it probably would if attending courses, etc.
You make a good point, but let's not kid ourselves. This 'virtue' isn't driven by a warm hearted desire to save lives - rather, hard nosed rational based on punitive updating of corporate manslaughter legislation in 2008. OOT has a point in that people who gravitate towards the military do have a different perception to risk and loss (not a more cavalier and irresponsible attitude, just a different one).
Tom/Whenur,
Don't speak too soon, the revised legislation (above) also compels employers to ensure that even private vehicles used for business purposes aren't exempt. I imagine this wouldn't apply to ops, but it probably would if attending courses, etc.