Could civilian AAR ever happen?
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Could civilian AAR ever happen?
AFAIK, AAR has never been attempted seriously in (commercial) civilian operations. With the ?quadrupling of fuel costs in recent years, perhaps there is now an incentive.
Yesterday's announcement, by a a significant SE Asian carrier, that their extra-long-haul flights (Singapore to LA and to Newark) were to chopped because they were no longer economically viable as non-stops due to present fuel costs, has resurrected a longstanding question in my mind - could civilian AAR operations ever be a realistic prospect for long-haul passenger flights?
I have no personal experience of the difficulties of air-to-air refuelling, and hope that others here - who most certainly have! - may be able to offer enlightenment?
(I am mindful that, as Operation Corporate emerged, the impossible suddenly ceased to be and that Large Aircraft were modified with amazing swiftness).
Yesterday's announcement, by a a significant SE Asian carrier, that their extra-long-haul flights (Singapore to LA and to Newark) were to chopped because they were no longer economically viable as non-stops due to present fuel costs, has resurrected a longstanding question in my mind - could civilian AAR operations ever be a realistic prospect for long-haul passenger flights?
I have no personal experience of the difficulties of air-to-air refuelling, and hope that others here - who most certainly have! - may be able to offer enlightenment?
(I am mindful that, as Operation Corporate emerged, the impossible suddenly ceased to be and that Large Aircraft were modified with amazing swiftness).
Could civilian AAR operations ever be a realistic prospect for long-haul passenger flights?
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The commercial margins in the airline world are tight to the extent that an increase in fuel cost can render a route uneconomic. I admire your original thought but the savings provided by taking on fuel later in the flight wouldn't even begin to cover the capital cost of the tanker aircraft, it's fuel, training, and probes on the airliners.
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civilian AAR
And with the hidtory of AAR what Civilian airline would ask it's paying customers to take the "risk" or more to the point what Civil Airline would pay the insurance
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The strict answer to your question dogle, is yes it could happen and it has in fact already been done! The first practical air refuelling was developed by a civilian company, Flight Refuelling Ltd in 1935 for a civilian application, extending the range of Empire class flying boats. They made 15 successful transatlantic flights until WWII intervened.
I applaud your thinking; Beagle was a bit unkind to use the word 'nonsense' although I agree with his conclusion.
I applaud your thinking; Beagle was a bit unkind to use the word 'nonsense' although I agree with his conclusion.
Last edited by ShotOne; 2nd Nov 2013 at 00:00.
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For the full story you need to read 'In Cobhams' Company', by Colin Crudas. ISBN 0 952448807.
Published by Cobham PLC. Not generally available through booksellers, I got mine at the time of publication from the company.
A few available here:
Published by Cobham PLC. Not generally available through booksellers, I got mine at the time of publication from the company.
A few available here:
Having spent many a tense hour in the back of a large aircraft as its captain sweated in his attempts to get into contact, I rather hope that for the passengers' sake if anyone does try it they'll go for the boom method rather than probe and drogue 
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 2nd Nov 2013 at 09:52.
they were no longer economically viable as non-stops due to present fuel costs, has resurrected a longstanding question in my mind - could civilian AAR operations ever be a realistic prospect for long-haul passenger flights?
SIN-LAX and SIN-EWR have been demonstrated as technically "do-able" but expensive. As always if there's sufficient demand for seats on a route "they will come", if there isn't, the customer doesn't. Adding a tanker+crew+tanker's fuel+tanker's slots to the equation is going to almost certainly going to make the economics even worse, not better.
Last edited by wiggy; 2nd Nov 2013 at 10:31.
I think you have the answer, as BEags has stated. However, Tankertrash hits the real nail on the head; no airline is going to allow thassengers to fly with a sweaty captain. Anyway, they wouldn't be able to do it because civilian pilots aren't as good as military pilots.
Adding a tanker+crew+tanker's fuel+tanker's slots to the equation is going to almost certainly going to make the economics even worse, not better.
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Would the economical benefit of taking off light not be written off by the tanker having to take off heavy, or indeed just it's fuel burn. And of course as mentioned that's another aircraft cost to factor in, and you would need more than one.
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Last edited by NutLoose; 2nd Nov 2013 at 11:18.
Would the economical benefit of taking off light not be written off by the tanker having to take off heavy, or indeed just it's fuel burn. And of course as mentioned that's another aircraft cost to factor in, and you would need more than one.
Obviously. But you would have the tanker cost whether you took off light or not. I was just wondering if part of that cost might be offset by having more payload as well as longer range.
Avoid imitations
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Having spent many a tense hour in the back of a large aircraft as its captain sweated in his attempts to get into contact,
Reforger ...
Back in the old days, big airways had an emergency commitment to transport reinforcement troops to Germany. This was exercised once or twice from appropriate airfields, using spare capacity including 747s. It was noted that the emergency capacity greatly exceeded the number of troops (even then) available to be transported. We also thought it was a much better strategism to use the 747s in a westerly direction rather than into RAFG.
At the same time, someone had the brilliantly patriotic idea of fitting the then new 757s and/or 767s with a quick install flight refuelling capability. This was for dispensing only of course, as any fule kno that even civvie pilots can fly S&L provided there is something to tell 'em which way is up.
LFH
At the same time, someone had the brilliantly patriotic idea of fitting the then new 757s and/or 767s with a quick install flight refuelling capability. This was for dispensing only of course, as any fule kno that even civvie pilots can fly S&L provided there is something to tell 'em which way is up.
LFH
Last edited by Lordflasheart; 2nd Nov 2013 at 12:09.
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Courtney, I apologise that no civvie pilots have bothered to rise to your "aren't as good" bait, even though, as mentioned, civvies invented, developed and trialled the idea years before any military chaps gave it a go. That's because we're all too busy counting our money in jacuzzis in Barbados with fifteen hosties!
I was just wondering if part of that cost might be offset by having more payload as well as longer range.
on a typical real world sector-6000 nautical mile leg, 50 tonnes of cargo/baggage in the hold and over 300 pax...and weight to spare. I think any gains you could make by AAR on that would be marginal to say the least....
ShotOne
That's because we're all too busy counting our money in jacuzzis in Barbados with fifteen hosties!
(It's stories like that led to some of us becoming ex-military 
)
extending the range of Empire class flying boats
Perhaps a modern equivalent would be an A330 piggy-backing on an A380 to save fuel on take-off...
The Mayo composite was only used because no other solution was available at the time for a non-stop Atlantic crossing, due to delays with Cobham's experiements. Even then, Mercury (the floatplane) with a crew of just 2 (pilot and wireless officer) only carried a ½ ton payload on its Atlantic flight when released from Maia (the flying boat).
AAR was subsequently used for a short time with the S30 flying boats, but was discontinued at the outbreak of WW2.
However, AAR was only used because there was no other alternative. Much as it was 25 or so years ago when 101 Sqn flew a non-stop VC10K flight from the UK to Australia - which required another VC10K (me) from Cyprus and a TriStar from Colombo (?) for support. Not long afterwards, QANTAS flew a B747-400 non-stop from Sydney to London, but on a non-revenue flight. It might well be possible for the A350XWB-900R to fly a non-stop London-Sydney flight - but who the heck would want to be cooped up in an airliner for that length of time? Unless, of course, one was travelling in some style.
AAR was subsequently used for a short time with the S30 flying boats, but was discontinued at the outbreak of WW2.
However, AAR was only used because there was no other alternative. Much as it was 25 or so years ago when 101 Sqn flew a non-stop VC10K flight from the UK to Australia - which required another VC10K (me) from Cyprus and a TriStar from Colombo (?) for support. Not long afterwards, QANTAS flew a B747-400 non-stop from Sydney to London, but on a non-revenue flight. It might well be possible for the A350XWB-900R to fly a non-stop London-Sydney flight - but who the heck would want to be cooped up in an airliner for that length of time? Unless, of course, one was travelling in some style.
The main reason for the AAR of the Empire flying boats is that to reach New York, the had to stage in Ireland and Newfoundland and often it was the sea state for take off and landing which was the limiting factor. A direct flight from Southampton to NY made the schedule much more reliable. The Mayo composite had the aim of getting the mail to NY just that bit quicker.
