One of your adversaries is missing...(merged)
Hanoi is a fabulous city. The old town is a maze of streets where you can easily get lost. And yes the food everywhere is fantastic. On our last trip we went to the area of Ninh Binh and hired a car and driver to take us around. For lunch on day one he stopped at a small hotel where we had a lunch of several different types of spring rolls. The second day he pulled up outside a building which looked awful. Did not really want to go in but again a great lunch of chicken and salads. Far to much. My wife and I travelled independently and made all our bookings direct. Our worst experience was on the awful night train between Hue and Ninh Binh which even in a sleeper went on and on for 12 hours. But when we reached Ninh Binh at 0530 waiting for us was the owner of the hotel where we were to stay. We hope to be back next year and HJ want to spend more time in Hoi An and rent a house for a couple of weeks.
Jane
Being an optimist, I eagerly waded through the personal attack hoping to find a crafted counter argument. I'm no longer an optimist.
As uncertain as Iraq's democracy is, the self determination the average Iraqi enjoys exceeds that of the average Vietnamese citizen. Under no illusion it's perfect, but there's something liberating about voting.
Perhaps Vietnam is like countries in the ME that wouldn't operate well under a democracy.
Either way, the war was a long time ago. The here and now is interesting enough. I foresee the rise of China as driving Vietnam closer to the US. This having been seen in many venues already.
That must drive the old guard in your country to drink, consorting with the enemy as it were.
Being an optimist, I eagerly waded through the personal attack hoping to find a crafted counter argument. I'm no longer an optimist.
As uncertain as Iraq's democracy is, the self determination the average Iraqi enjoys exceeds that of the average Vietnamese citizen. Under no illusion it's perfect, but there's something liberating about voting.
Perhaps Vietnam is like countries in the ME that wouldn't operate well under a democracy.
Either way, the war was a long time ago. The here and now is interesting enough. I foresee the rise of China as driving Vietnam closer to the US. This having been seen in many venues already.
That must drive the old guard in your country to drink, consorting with the enemy as it were.
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West Coast:
One of the most pointless activities known to man is attempting to argue with an American on the Internet. So, in respect of your thinly-disguised invitation to discuss Iraq or the political system in Viet Nam, may I simply reply;
"Yes, I'm sure that whatever you say, you're correct."
However, your observation regarding which way we'll jump as regards our New Best Friend is easier to dispute.
We don't like the Chinese. We're not chums with the Chinese. We'll probably have some little dust-ups with the Chinese in the South China Sea. But if it's a choice between a long term partnership with an old enemy, albeit one who has helped us when our backs have been against the wall in the past, and a partnership with a technology mastering and economically powerful but hugely unreliable friend in America, I know who we'll choose. And it won't be the country which stumbles into wars, loses them, and then scampers off home leaving what remains of those they'd promised to 'set free' to face the music.
Trust me, no-one wants a friend like that. We like winners.
One of the most pointless activities known to man is attempting to argue with an American on the Internet. So, in respect of your thinly-disguised invitation to discuss Iraq or the political system in Viet Nam, may I simply reply;
"Yes, I'm sure that whatever you say, you're correct."
However, your observation regarding which way we'll jump as regards our New Best Friend is easier to dispute.
We don't like the Chinese. We're not chums with the Chinese. We'll probably have some little dust-ups with the Chinese in the South China Sea. But if it's a choice between a long term partnership with an old enemy, albeit one who has helped us when our backs have been against the wall in the past, and a partnership with a technology mastering and economically powerful but hugely unreliable friend in America, I know who we'll choose. And it won't be the country which stumbles into wars, loses them, and then scampers off home leaving what remains of those they'd promised to 'set free' to face the music.
Trust me, no-one wants a friend like that. We like winners.
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Janda:
You certainly seem to get the best out of your visits. Travelling independently in VN is only for the brave (or the backpacker generation) but you can sure have a fun time doing things that way, plus you get closer to the people and culture.
Did you wander along Long Bien Bridge? You really need to use a mo'bike, then park at one of the pull-ins and go down the steps to the islands to appreciate the structure. There is talk of renovating the bridge, so go see it before they do. To those of a certain generation it's THE iconic structure in Viet Nam.
Hoi An is a reasonable place to base yourself. Please, if you return, PM me. If I'm in Asia I'll pop over and say 'Hi', and if not then I'd be delighted to offer suggestions for places to visit / people to meet.
I could have warned you about the train. It's not our fault, the French built the line (very badly). Do what the locals do, fly Vietnam Airlines, then use a taxi to wherever you need to go. It's less painful that way.
Speaking about trains, if you go to Da Lat and it's towards the end of the day, you can sometimes persuade - for about $25 - the driver of the train which runs along the short section of line to take you on the journey in the cab all by yourself. It's quite cool. The only time I've ever had a train just to myself. An ambition from my childhood realised :-)
You certainly seem to get the best out of your visits. Travelling independently in VN is only for the brave (or the backpacker generation) but you can sure have a fun time doing things that way, plus you get closer to the people and culture.
Did you wander along Long Bien Bridge? You really need to use a mo'bike, then park at one of the pull-ins and go down the steps to the islands to appreciate the structure. There is talk of renovating the bridge, so go see it before they do. To those of a certain generation it's THE iconic structure in Viet Nam.
Hoi An is a reasonable place to base yourself. Please, if you return, PM me. If I'm in Asia I'll pop over and say 'Hi', and if not then I'd be delighted to offer suggestions for places to visit / people to meet.
I could have warned you about the train. It's not our fault, the French built the line (very badly). Do what the locals do, fly Vietnam Airlines, then use a taxi to wherever you need to go. It's less painful that way.
Speaking about trains, if you go to Da Lat and it's towards the end of the day, you can sometimes persuade - for about $25 - the driver of the train which runs along the short section of line to take you on the journey in the cab all by yourself. It's quite cool. The only time I've ever had a train just to myself. An ambition from my childhood realised :-)
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Sorry to bugger off suddenly last night, but I've caught a beastly UK bug since my return from Taipei a few weeks ago. I felt the urgent need to lie down :-(
Yes, 'Don't hit anyone in front of you' is the only rule. Kinda difficult to follow when you're gazing at some girls cute bum as she zooms past.
I tend to stick my hand in the air when I cross the road, it makes it easier for bike riders to see a pedestrian in the dense traffic ahead. I'm looking forward to Christmas in VN, you simply haven't lived until you've been part of the Christmas-decoration-sightseeing-by-mo'bike on a Sunday evening. It's immense! Unfortunately your bike gets scratched to hell in the melee.
The girls name was Nga. Good pronunciation though. STAY AWAY FROM THE GIRLS :-)
You like Dragon fruit? It's grown against concrete pillars, about one meter high. If you head to Mui Ne you'll see fields of the things.
Seriously, you need to come back. There's a ton of experiences you need to... well... experience :-)
Sorry to bugger off suddenly last night, but I've caught a beastly UK bug since my return from Taipei a few weeks ago. I felt the urgent need to lie down :-(
Yes, 'Don't hit anyone in front of you' is the only rule. Kinda difficult to follow when you're gazing at some girls cute bum as she zooms past.
I tend to stick my hand in the air when I cross the road, it makes it easier for bike riders to see a pedestrian in the dense traffic ahead. I'm looking forward to Christmas in VN, you simply haven't lived until you've been part of the Christmas-decoration-sightseeing-by-mo'bike on a Sunday evening. It's immense! Unfortunately your bike gets scratched to hell in the melee.
The girls name was Nga. Good pronunciation though. STAY AWAY FROM THE GIRLS :-)
You like Dragon fruit? It's grown against concrete pillars, about one meter high. If you head to Mui Ne you'll see fields of the things.
Seriously, you need to come back. There's a ton of experiences you need to... well... experience :-)
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West Coast.
I’d like to interrupt the travelogue to pick up on a point you made and attempt to put the thread back on topic.
“The here and now is interesting enough.”
Why yes it is.....
When Ho Chi Minh and Giap took advantage of the power vacumn that existed in Indochina in 1945, they honestly believed that their party was best placed to guide Vietnam to the path of independence and end the exploitative feudal system the French inherited when they, quite by accident, colonised the place.
No one can or should argue against some of Ho’s or Giaps aims, which intended to end the exploitation of the many for the benefit of the few. The few in 1945 were most assuredly the French.
Where Giap and Ho were wrong was to adopt the economic experiment of communism and adopt a ‘whatever it takes’ attitude to implement that system. Gross crimes were committed to right a wrong.
Fast forward to the present day and there is still serious inequality in Vietnam. The exploitation of the many for the benefit of the few still exists. Nowadays the beneficiaries are not the French but the members of ‘The Party’.
Although, Vietnam has now embraced the capitalism that Giap and Ho once firmly rejected, the benefits are not equally shared as they are in the UK or Australia. For that matter, Malaysia, Singapore or South Korea.
The problem is as Hanoi Jane freely admits is nepotism. It goes much further than his admission that “If my father wasn't who he was, I'd have been washed out at basic”. The spoils from almost every major state controlled enterprise from Banking to Construction to those that are not state controlled, like the Vietnamese McDonalds Franchise, go to the sons and daughters of party leaders.
The sons , daughters and in-laws of the “party” leadership have in essence taken the place of the perfidious and exploitative French.
Funny how the more things change the more they stay the same. It came full cycle in Giap’s lifetime.
Maybe it was because he saw that nothing he ever did actually mattered that turned him into an environmental activist in his dotage?
I’d like to interrupt the travelogue to pick up on a point you made and attempt to put the thread back on topic.
“The here and now is interesting enough.”
Why yes it is.....
When Ho Chi Minh and Giap took advantage of the power vacumn that existed in Indochina in 1945, they honestly believed that their party was best placed to guide Vietnam to the path of independence and end the exploitative feudal system the French inherited when they, quite by accident, colonised the place.
No one can or should argue against some of Ho’s or Giaps aims, which intended to end the exploitation of the many for the benefit of the few. The few in 1945 were most assuredly the French.
Where Giap and Ho were wrong was to adopt the economic experiment of communism and adopt a ‘whatever it takes’ attitude to implement that system. Gross crimes were committed to right a wrong.
Fast forward to the present day and there is still serious inequality in Vietnam. The exploitation of the many for the benefit of the few still exists. Nowadays the beneficiaries are not the French but the members of ‘The Party’.
Although, Vietnam has now embraced the capitalism that Giap and Ho once firmly rejected, the benefits are not equally shared as they are in the UK or Australia. For that matter, Malaysia, Singapore or South Korea.
The problem is as Hanoi Jane freely admits is nepotism. It goes much further than his admission that “If my father wasn't who he was, I'd have been washed out at basic”. The spoils from almost every major state controlled enterprise from Banking to Construction to those that are not state controlled, like the Vietnamese McDonalds Franchise, go to the sons and daughters of party leaders.
The sons , daughters and in-laws of the “party” leadership have in essence taken the place of the perfidious and exploitative French.
Funny how the more things change the more they stay the same. It came full cycle in Giap’s lifetime.
Maybe it was because he saw that nothing he ever did actually mattered that turned him into an environmental activist in his dotage?
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Michael:
But I do object to you interrupting our travelogues. They were fun and informative. Two attributes you should try to incorporate in your posts.
Why is it that every time I read something from you I'm reminded of Timothy Leary talking about '... a brain dressed up with nowhere to go'?
Though I am becoming mildly interested in the reasons behind your intense dislike of Viet Nam. Care to share?
Or...
We could talk aeroplanes. Do you know anything about them at all, other than being an avid collector of serial numbers and airframe history? Did / do you fly them, service them, administer the shiny little fellows?
For example, I'd be mightily interested to hear your assessment of our SAM performance during the American War. Good, bad or indifferent? Did we respond to Wild Weasel in an interesting or effective way? That sort of thing.
Now, you have my complete attention. Please don't disappoint.
But I do object to you interrupting our travelogues. They were fun and informative. Two attributes you should try to incorporate in your posts.
Why is it that every time I read something from you I'm reminded of Timothy Leary talking about '... a brain dressed up with nowhere to go'?
Though I am becoming mildly interested in the reasons behind your intense dislike of Viet Nam. Care to share?
Or...
We could talk aeroplanes. Do you know anything about them at all, other than being an avid collector of serial numbers and airframe history? Did / do you fly them, service them, administer the shiny little fellows?
For example, I'd be mightily interested to hear your assessment of our SAM performance during the American War. Good, bad or indifferent? Did we respond to Wild Weasel in an interesting or effective way? That sort of thing.
Now, you have my complete attention. Please don't disappoint.
Hello HJ,
Talking about airplanes, could I ask your choices about books on air combat over Vietnam, please?
I really like Mitchel´s "Clashes", but is hardly a balanced account (anyway, I read it three times...). I must say, from the NV perspective I have Boniface´s "MIGs Over North Vietnam", a good book.
Could I ask you personnal choices, if any?
Thanks a lot!
Talking about airplanes, could I ask your choices about books on air combat over Vietnam, please?
I really like Mitchel´s "Clashes", but is hardly a balanced account (anyway, I read it three times...). I must say, from the NV perspective I have Boniface´s "MIGs Over North Vietnam", a good book.
Could I ask you personnal choices, if any?
Thanks a lot!
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Marcantilan:
Hi there :-)
I'm glad you added the 'if any' option, because there are non I would care to recommend.
To a greater or lesser extent, they're all works of fiction. American writers, and their fellow travellers, have a particular perspective to cement. Writers favourable to the Vietnamese are equally guilty of bias, though for different reasons.
No writer can present an accurate overview of the air war in Viet Nam, because no-one has access to all the data. The Americans have their own very good reasons for manipulating their data sets. The Vietnamese simply don't have accurate data even on their own losses, far less their successes. I know, I have tried to access this information.
You have to remember that most after-action reports from our side were compiled with one eye on our political masters. As such, they bear little resemblance to reality. We're taught very little of the American War and most of us have even less interest in the detail, unless for personal reasons.
In short; there was a war, some of our people died, we won, life goes on.
I don't know why people care, I really don't.
Hi there :-)
I'm glad you added the 'if any' option, because there are non I would care to recommend.
To a greater or lesser extent, they're all works of fiction. American writers, and their fellow travellers, have a particular perspective to cement. Writers favourable to the Vietnamese are equally guilty of bias, though for different reasons.
No writer can present an accurate overview of the air war in Viet Nam, because no-one has access to all the data. The Americans have their own very good reasons for manipulating their data sets. The Vietnamese simply don't have accurate data even on their own losses, far less their successes. I know, I have tried to access this information.
You have to remember that most after-action reports from our side were compiled with one eye on our political masters. As such, they bear little resemblance to reality. We're taught very little of the American War and most of us have even less interest in the detail, unless for personal reasons.
In short; there was a war, some of our people died, we won, life goes on.
I don't know why people care, I really don't.
Last edited by hanoijane; 20th Oct 2013 at 15:03. Reason: Removing words wot shouldn't be there.
Chippy
"I’d like to interrupt the travelogue to pick up on a point you made and attempt to put the thread back on topic"
Got a chuckle out of that.
I defer to your greater knowledge. My company did cooperate with a start up airline in Vietnam a few years back. The folks that I know that spent time there said the man on the street types were friendly but that the political system was full of graft.
Jane
Why is Iraq off the table for you? Is a side by side comparison with the government in Vietnam not something you'd like to compare and contrast?
You've said on occasion you enjoy being anonymous on the prune. You should then be free then to speak of the government, warts and all, minus the state security apparatchik inviting you to an all expense paid trip to the peoples re-education camp. Clearly you are well educated and full of opinion. You surely must hold opinions about issues extending beyond the state sanctioned enemies beyond your shores or is that taboo? I guess you might be known in your country, so I understand.
As to China and your desires to stay away from anyone's sphere of influence, it looks like the your government doesn't seem to agree with you. Can that in of itself get you and invite from the men in black pajamas?
"I’d like to interrupt the travelogue to pick up on a point you made and attempt to put the thread back on topic"
Got a chuckle out of that.
I defer to your greater knowledge. My company did cooperate with a start up airline in Vietnam a few years back. The folks that I know that spent time there said the man on the street types were friendly but that the political system was full of graft.
Jane
Why is Iraq off the table for you? Is a side by side comparison with the government in Vietnam not something you'd like to compare and contrast?
You've said on occasion you enjoy being anonymous on the prune. You should then be free then to speak of the government, warts and all, minus the state security apparatchik inviting you to an all expense paid trip to the peoples re-education camp. Clearly you are well educated and full of opinion. You surely must hold opinions about issues extending beyond the state sanctioned enemies beyond your shores or is that taboo? I guess you might be known in your country, so I understand.
As to China and your desires to stay away from anyone's sphere of influence, it looks like the your government doesn't seem to agree with you. Can that in of itself get you and invite from the men in black pajamas?
Last edited by West Coast; 20th Oct 2013 at 16:07.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I guess curiosity and to answer, 'could it have been done differently?'
We have had French v Russian, French v British, and American v Russian but the latter has always been very one-sided. While the first two have been written up extensively the American one, especially where the equipment was operated by Americans has not had the same treatment.
OK, that is simplistic but may be true.
Have a look at the following book:
One Day in a Long War, May 10th, 1972: North Vietnam, Air War by Jeffrey Ethell, Dr. Alfred Price (Hardback, 1990)
Alf's speciality is to set the story be comparing personal narratives by aircrew on both sides of a conflict. Marcantilian my be aware of his work on the Falklands conflict. Ethel tackles one side and Price the other; in this case I don't know who does which.
I have not read the book but I do know Alf.
We have had French v Russian, French v British, and American v Russian but the latter has always been very one-sided. While the first two have been written up extensively the American one, especially where the equipment was operated by Americans has not had the same treatment.
OK, that is simplistic but may be true.
Have a look at the following book:
One Day in a Long War, May 10th, 1972: North Vietnam, Air War by Jeffrey Ethell, Dr. Alfred Price (Hardback, 1990)
Alf's speciality is to set the story be comparing personal narratives by aircrew on both sides of a conflict. Marcantilian my be aware of his work on the Falklands conflict. Ethel tackles one side and Price the other; in this case I don't know who does which.
I have not read the book but I do know Alf.
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This is one of the most interesting threads I've followed, for some time.
Thoughtful contributions from all sides, though I must admit to being somewhat beguiled by hanoijane!
Thoughtful contributions from all sides, though I must admit to being somewhat beguiled by hanoijane!
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PN:
I don't doubt the accuracy of a snapshot of the conflict (well I do, depending on their sources) but I don't see what it teaches you about the conflict itself. More to the point, I don't see why anyone should care, other than maudlin curiosity.
It's done. Over. Finished.
Now, tell me something interesting - like - just how long do you think your Vulcan would have lasted in Soviet airspace?
I don't doubt the accuracy of a snapshot of the conflict (well I do, depending on their sources) but I don't see what it teaches you about the conflict itself. More to the point, I don't see why anyone should care, other than maudlin curiosity.
It's done. Over. Finished.
Now, tell me something interesting - like - just how long do you think your Vulcan would have lasted in Soviet airspace?
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to engage the interest of by or as if by guile
You do realise I'm male? With an incredibly tiny penis
You're not a Ladyboy by any chance?
Jane
Why such an attitude? Are the minders giving you advice? Is the Government of Vietnam so perfect that you have nothing to say? Ask me about my government and I'll use epithets that are less than gentlemanly. Do you enjoy that same level of freedom to discuss your government?
Why such an attitude? Are the minders giving you advice? Is the Government of Vietnam so perfect that you have nothing to say? Ask me about my government and I'll use epithets that are less than gentlemanly. Do you enjoy that same level of freedom to discuss your government?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
HJ, I would cock shy to say long enough for 70% of the weapons systems to have worked. Post-attack was probably not to different either as damage would have been widespread.
Remember a fair number of targets barely required the bombers to go feet dry.
PS, AFAIK the Victor SR2 sqn were planned to do a round robin of the different targets for post-strike reconnaissance for subsequent re-attacks by other forces.
Remember a fair number of targets barely required the bombers to go feet dry.
PS, AFAIK the Victor SR2 sqn were planned to do a round robin of the different targets for post-strike reconnaissance for subsequent re-attacks by other forces.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 20th Oct 2013 at 18:57.
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Goudie:
Not a ladyboy. I'm not pretty enough. Sadly.
West Coast:
No attitude. I simply find you quite dull. Is it wrong to be honest?
But to entertain you;
I have no minders, I'm not that important. And the reason I'm non too critical of my government is that I rather like they way they're handling things at the moment.
They need to do more for the desperately poor and they need to look at the (re)distribution of wealth, but that's a problem common to the West too. If you guys can find a solution, we'll follow, trust me.
There is a very active, vocal and growing-in-influence alternative political movement in Viet Nam. I know, because I meet with these people, though I don't agree with much of what they say. They're affluent, middle class, very well educated (usually abroad) and they want the freedom to get richer, faster. But they are committed to Viet Nam, which is why they're allowed the freedom to express their views at all levels.
And freedom to bitch is permitted here. There are regular demonstrations in front of the Hotel de Ville by the Rex in HCMC, usually over land issues. The police let the protesters hang around for a few hours with their banners, get photographed by the press and the tourists, then load them into trucks and drop them just outside the city limits with the invitation 'Now you can walk home'.
Try protesting in front of your local city hall and see how kindly you're treated in the land of the free. You'll be on the Homeland Security database before your ass hits the ground. And, as Mr Snowdon has already revealed, your intention to protest will already be known to your security services if you arranged it via cellphone, landline or Internet. If only we had that level of population control...
However, having lived in Vientiane for eight months recently, I'm happy to say VERY rude things about the Lao government. Would you like to hear those?
Not a ladyboy. I'm not pretty enough. Sadly.
West Coast:
No attitude. I simply find you quite dull. Is it wrong to be honest?
But to entertain you;
I have no minders, I'm not that important. And the reason I'm non too critical of my government is that I rather like they way they're handling things at the moment.
They need to do more for the desperately poor and they need to look at the (re)distribution of wealth, but that's a problem common to the West too. If you guys can find a solution, we'll follow, trust me.
There is a very active, vocal and growing-in-influence alternative political movement in Viet Nam. I know, because I meet with these people, though I don't agree with much of what they say. They're affluent, middle class, very well educated (usually abroad) and they want the freedom to get richer, faster. But they are committed to Viet Nam, which is why they're allowed the freedom to express their views at all levels.
And freedom to bitch is permitted here. There are regular demonstrations in front of the Hotel de Ville by the Rex in HCMC, usually over land issues. The police let the protesters hang around for a few hours with their banners, get photographed by the press and the tourists, then load them into trucks and drop them just outside the city limits with the invitation 'Now you can walk home'.
Try protesting in front of your local city hall and see how kindly you're treated in the land of the free. You'll be on the Homeland Security database before your ass hits the ground. And, as Mr Snowdon has already revealed, your intention to protest will already be known to your security services if you arranged it via cellphone, landline or Internet. If only we had that level of population control...
However, having lived in Vientiane for eight months recently, I'm happy to say VERY rude things about the Lao government. Would you like to hear those?