Jeremy Paxman is concerned.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
A good precursor to Paxmans book is;
Mud, Blood and Poppycock: Britain and the Great War
Gordon Corrigan
"The popular view of the First World War remains that of 'Blackadder': incompetent generals sending brave soldiers to their deaths. Alan Clark quoted a German general's remark that the British soldiers were 'lions led by donkeys'. But he made it up. Indeed, many established 'facts' about 1914-18 turn out to be myths woven in the 1960s by young historians on the make. Gordon Corrigan's brilliant, witty new history reveals how out of touch we have become with the soldiers of 1914-18. They simply would not recognize the way their generation is depicted on TV or in Pat Barker's novels. Laced with dry humour, this will overturn everything you thought you knew about Britain and the First World War. Gordon Corrigan reveals how the British embraced technology, and developed the weapons and tactics to break through the enemy trenches."
IMHO, it's about time we opened up the history and put to bed the myths.
Mud, Blood and Poppycock: Britain and the Great War
Gordon Corrigan
"The popular view of the First World War remains that of 'Blackadder': incompetent generals sending brave soldiers to their deaths. Alan Clark quoted a German general's remark that the British soldiers were 'lions led by donkeys'. But he made it up. Indeed, many established 'facts' about 1914-18 turn out to be myths woven in the 1960s by young historians on the make. Gordon Corrigan's brilliant, witty new history reveals how out of touch we have become with the soldiers of 1914-18. They simply would not recognize the way their generation is depicted on TV or in Pat Barker's novels. Laced with dry humour, this will overturn everything you thought you knew about Britain and the First World War. Gordon Corrigan reveals how the British embraced technology, and developed the weapons and tactics to break through the enemy trenches."
IMHO, it's about time we opened up the history and put to bed the myths.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Also, it's a naive British misconception that the French are a set of surrender monkeys.
The actions of further mutiny would have allowed the German Army to break through the rapidly diminishing French lines at Aisne. In order to divert the German attention, this in turn led to the launch of Third Battle of Ypres/Passchendaele. (Where my Great Uncle fought in the Battle of Polygon Wood)
Naive misconception or historical fact?
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On topic, it seems right to commemerate the start of the first lot; not celebrate,
It's always puzzled me how few lessons we learnt from the American Civil War and the 2nd Boer War.
It's always puzzled me how few lessons we learnt from the American Civil War and the 2nd Boer War.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
How about quiet, sombre, and a short 'news' item (without editorial spin) for the days leading up to the lights going out all over Europe. Although did Fellowes do that in Downton a couple of years ago?
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 9th Oct 2013 at 08:36.
The first man into Port Stanley was a journalist and author.
On a point of order, PN, Max Hastings is credited with being the first journalist into Port Stanley.
On a lighter note, my understanding is that one of the very first service personnel to arrive in Port Stanley was a young officer from one of the trawlers taken up from trade, who shinned up a ladder on one of the jetties there, put his hand up on to the jetty, called out something on the lines of "I reclaim Port Stanley!", only to discover that he had in fact got a handful of something rather nasty since the Argentinians were using the jetty as a latrine ....
Jack
On a point of order, PN, Max Hastings is credited with being the first journalist into Port Stanley.
On a lighter note, my understanding is that one of the very first service personnel to arrive in Port Stanley was a young officer from one of the trawlers taken up from trade, who shinned up a ladder on one of the jetties there, put his hand up on to the jetty, called out something on the lines of "I reclaim Port Stanley!", only to discover that he had in fact got a handful of something rather nasty since the Argentinians were using the jetty as a latrine ....
Jack
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Hats off to the French for the first day of the Somme etc, however correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the French mutiny in the summer of 1917?
The actions of further mutiny would have allowed the German Army to break through the rapidly diminishing French lines at Aisne. In order to divert the German attention, this in turn led to the launch of Third Battle of Ypres/Passchendaele. (Where my Great Uncle fought in the Battle of Polygon Wood)
Naive misconception or historical fact?
The actions of further mutiny would have allowed the German Army to break through the rapidly diminishing French lines at Aisne. In order to divert the German attention, this in turn led to the launch of Third Battle of Ypres/Passchendaele. (Where my Great Uncle fought in the Battle of Polygon Wood)
Naive misconception or historical fact?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
As a general rule the British Armed Forces have always gone into it's next conflict prepared to refight the previous war (Waterloo-Crimea, Crimea-South Africa, South Africa- WW1 etc..). One wonders if we'll turn up for the next one and find it won't be a rerun of Afganistan?
The BEF of 1914 was probably the best trained, best equipped (apart from a lack of machine guns compared to continental armies) and most professional army this country has ever put into the field. In open warfare it was well able to hold it's own and punch well above it's weight. It's performance at Mons, Le Cateau, the Great Retreat and the Race to the Sea provide ample of evidence of this.
Once the front stablised, the German Army largely remained on the defensive (apart from one major offensive at Verdun in 1916 and some local attacks around Ypres) placing the onus on the Allies to attack and retake occupied France and Belgium where the advantage would always lie with the defender. The essential point is that this was a type and scale of warfare never experienced before by any combatant on either side and the technology and tactics to overcome the defences took many years to develop and perfect while at the same time expanding ten-fold to meet the demands of modern war, regretably with much loss of life along the way.
By 1918 the British (and Empire) Army was a superb instrument of war and had pioneered the development of all arms tactics using infantry, armour, artillery, sappers and aviation to achieve a breakthrough. Sadly, there is very little mention ever made of the Battle of Amiens and the '100 Days' which broke the German Army on the Western Front. Much has been made of the apparent fixation with cavalry and although the full charge was obviously not a viable tactic in modern war, even in 1918 the only way to move a man and his equipment quickly across country was still by horse. Had the war carried on into 1919 further development of equipment and tactics would have continued- If you visit the Tank Museum at Bovington you can see the prototype Mark IX Tank- the worlds first armoured personnel carrier.
I agree that Gordon Corrigans book is an essential read for anyone with a passing interest in WW1 and who wishes to dispel the myths of 'Blackadder' and the like. I would also recommend Lyn Mcdonald's series of books on WW1 especially '1914' which is a fitting tribute and epitath to the BEF and the spirit of the times.
The BEF of 1914 was probably the best trained, best equipped (apart from a lack of machine guns compared to continental armies) and most professional army this country has ever put into the field. In open warfare it was well able to hold it's own and punch well above it's weight. It's performance at Mons, Le Cateau, the Great Retreat and the Race to the Sea provide ample of evidence of this.
Once the front stablised, the German Army largely remained on the defensive (apart from one major offensive at Verdun in 1916 and some local attacks around Ypres) placing the onus on the Allies to attack and retake occupied France and Belgium where the advantage would always lie with the defender. The essential point is that this was a type and scale of warfare never experienced before by any combatant on either side and the technology and tactics to overcome the defences took many years to develop and perfect while at the same time expanding ten-fold to meet the demands of modern war, regretably with much loss of life along the way.
By 1918 the British (and Empire) Army was a superb instrument of war and had pioneered the development of all arms tactics using infantry, armour, artillery, sappers and aviation to achieve a breakthrough. Sadly, there is very little mention ever made of the Battle of Amiens and the '100 Days' which broke the German Army on the Western Front. Much has been made of the apparent fixation with cavalry and although the full charge was obviously not a viable tactic in modern war, even in 1918 the only way to move a man and his equipment quickly across country was still by horse. Had the war carried on into 1919 further development of equipment and tactics would have continued- If you visit the Tank Museum at Bovington you can see the prototype Mark IX Tank- the worlds first armoured personnel carrier.
I agree that Gordon Corrigans book is an essential read for anyone with a passing interest in WW1 and who wishes to dispel the myths of 'Blackadder' and the like. I would also recommend Lyn Mcdonald's series of books on WW1 especially '1914' which is a fitting tribute and epitath to the BEF and the spirit of the times.
Hats off to the French for the first day of the Somme etc, however correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the French mutiny in the summer of 1917?
The actions of further mutiny would have allowed the German Army to break through the rapidly diminishing French lines at Aisne. In order to
The actions of further mutiny would have allowed the German Army to break through the rapidly diminishing French lines at Aisne. In order to
The French dealt with elements of it harshly but also with understanding of what they were facing and removed a Senior General.
They were not the only Army to have suffered Mutiny as other Allied Armies did as well.
Petain wished to wait for AEF and introduction of more tanks as even he realised the futility of charging Machine guns across no mans land.
Given the sheer number of French casualties in WW1 the idea that they were not willing to fight is not borne by the statistics.
Petain a hero in WW1 and a devil in WW2, I recognise that after seeing 2 generations of French men wiped out in WW1 he could do it to his nation in WW2. Doesn't excuse what he did but easier to understand.
The BEF of 1914 was probably the best trained, best equipped (apart from a lack of machine guns compared to continental armies) and most professional army this country has ever put into the field. In open warfare it was well able to hold it's own and punch well above it's weight. It's performance at Mons, Le Cateau, the Great Retreat and the Race to the Sea provide ample of evidence of this.
Once the front stablised, the German Army largely remained on the defensive (apart from one major offensive at Verdun in 1916 and some local attacks around Ypres) placing the onus on the Allies to attack and retake occupied France and Belgium where the advantage would always lie with the defender.
Having read all the posts, I believe that the general opinion is that the country should commemorate the beginning of that unholy bloodbath and celebrate in 2018 the anniversary of its ending. I'm sure that Cameron had no intention to be caught out by his soft spot, that of spinning good news at all times, but he was. If it's to be a celebration, then I for one will not be joining in.
Smudge
Smudge
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
On horses and cavalry, remember the Poles used cavalry at the beginning of WW2 and the Germans also made extensive use of horse drawn waggons.
When you get in to some fine detail of WW1 some curious, to our eyes, facts emerge.
Many of the Territorial force were engaged in 1911 for 5 years. They also had to agree to serve outside the British Isles. A forebear of my wife's did this and was asked on 26 Sep 1915 if he would re-engage; he declined. I leave you to find the significance of that date.
He was no dodger however as he then returned to sea in the Naval Patrol Service and served until 1919. He rejoined in 1940 and served through to 1945.
The point is that soldiers in WW1 did not necessarily serve for 'the duration' as they did in WW2 despite the appalling loss of life.
When you get in to some fine detail of WW1 some curious, to our eyes, facts emerge.
Many of the Territorial force were engaged in 1911 for 5 years. They also had to agree to serve outside the British Isles. A forebear of my wife's did this and was asked on 26 Sep 1915 if he would re-engage; he declined. I leave you to find the significance of that date.
He was no dodger however as he then returned to sea in the Naval Patrol Service and served until 1919. He rejoined in 1940 and served through to 1945.
The point is that soldiers in WW1 did not necessarily serve for 'the duration' as they did in WW2 despite the appalling loss of life.
A forebear of my wife's did this and was asked on 26 Sep 1915 if he would re-engage; he declined. I leave you to find the significance of that date.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
26 Sept 1915 The Battle of Loos begins
26 Sept 1916 The Battle of Thiepval Ridge begins
26 Sept 1917 The Battle of Polygon Wood begins. (re: my previous post)
26 Sept 1918 Battle of the Argonne Forest begins (the bloodiest single battle in American history)
26 Sept 1916 The Battle of Thiepval Ridge begins
26 Sept 1917 The Battle of Polygon Wood begins. (re: my previous post)
26 Sept 1918 Battle of the Argonne Forest begins (the bloodiest single battle in American history)
Gentleman Aviator
26 Sept 1918 Battle of the Argonne Forest begins (the bloodiest single battle in American history)
The Argonne Offensive lasted 47 days - up to the 11/11 Armistice in fact, but -depending on sources - there were probably only 20-30 days of actual heavy fighting. But still 117 000 casualties.
Pro rata I would offer two from the Civil War: Gettysburg with 51 000 over 3 days, and Chikamauga with 34 000 over 2 days.
Sadly, like the Brits (in the Wars of the Roses and the English Civil War) we seem to lose lots when we're fighting our own countrymen. For us; 28 000 cas in one day at Towton (29th March 1461).
But all pales into insignificance beside 1st July 1916 (first day of the Somme) - 57 450 British cas (19 420 dead + 2 152 MIA)), to which we can add about 2 700 French and up to 10 000 Germans.
maybe that's the day we should commemorate......
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BBC reveals 2,500-hour World War I season
Well, looks like the BBC will be making some effort; should some worthy material there.
"And a chance for us all to learn something new about a war we think we know well."
The season will include 130 newly commissioned programmes, spanning almost 2,500 hours."
BBC News - BBC reveals 2,500-hour World War I season
"And a chance for us all to learn something new about a war we think we know well."
The season will include 130 newly commissioned programmes, spanning almost 2,500 hours."
BBC News - BBC reveals 2,500-hour World War I season
Am I alone in worrying that the focus on remembering the First World War may cause the public/media to overlook the (sadly) dwindling number of World War Two veterans?
Whilst they are alive, they are the best possible link to the history of both world wars.
Whilst they are alive, they are the best possible link to the history of both world wars.
Am I alone in worrying that the focus on remembering the First World War may cause the public/media to overlook the (sadly) dwindling number of World War Two veterans?
Whilst they are alive, they are the best possible link to the history of both world wars.
Whilst they are alive, they are the best possible link to the history of both world wars.
