Looking for advice: ex Jaguar GR1(a) pilots/maint.
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Lightningmate, I do not know if the OC was PF or the Flt Lt was with XX136, I was 8 years old at the time so wasn't in the loop.
The story from Sharpend seemed very much like 2 + 2 = 
,
The aircraft did however prove that pushing the limits with a pussy cat was dodgy and Sharpend's story would look good in a book.. Like the French AdA Colonel who dismissed the G induced spine bending yaw that the British complained about, suddenly found out "that the French kites had exactly the same problem" at 1000 ft in 1973 "l'avion est dangereux".
The story from Sharpend seemed very much like 2 + 2 = ,The aircraft did however prove that pushing the limits with a pussy cat was dodgy and Sharpend's story would look good in a book.. Like the French AdA Colonel who dismissed the G induced spine bending yaw that the British complained about, suddenly found out "that the French kites had exactly the same problem" at 1000 ft in 1973 "l'avion est dangereux".
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When I was on the staff at the OCU, I taught the blokes to imagine the stick could only move forward, aft and straight sideways -never diagonally.
Most seemed comfortable with the analogy -except an american exchange chap - cost us a jet eventually.
As for rolling, in my display I rolled it from inverted to inverted - seemed to do just fine.
I departed it twice in my time and both times it came out but gave me a bloody good fright - especially the second one which ended up uneditted in a flight safety video. The roll rate was so fast on that one it dumped the 1064.
If you were careful you could fly it at 20 alpha and down to 115 kt.
All in all - bloody good fun.
Most seemed comfortable with the analogy -except an american exchange chap - cost us a jet eventually.
As for rolling, in my display I rolled it from inverted to inverted - seemed to do just fine.
I departed it twice in my time and both times it came out but gave me a bloody good fright - especially the second one which ended up uneditted in a flight safety video. The roll rate was so fast on that one it dumped the 1064.
If you were careful you could fly it at 20 alpha and down to 115 kt.
All in all - bloody good fun.
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Andy, your 20 Alpha and 115 Knt performances were in a "Black", non IFR capable, "C" fit aeroplane, I assume?
The Jag for the engineers was a doddle compared to the Heaps and Tonkas.. Someone actually tried to think about putting items in places were they could be removed and installed at without ripping half the aeroplane apart, when it was designed. Wherever it was French or British philosophy, I wouldn't care to comment.
Oh, that video of the display jet (T-bird as well) actually doing a fairly fast roll (pylons only of course) was about 0.8 seconds for the mid 180 degrees of the roll (the middle 180 degrees is going to be at a maximum rate.). .. So it did roll comfortably at approx 220 degrees/sec in the clean. As Cubes says, no major back pressure at the same time though. Others will say what they could do with bolt ons..
The Jag for the engineers was a doddle compared to the Heaps and Tonkas.. Someone actually tried to think about putting items in places were they could be removed and installed at without ripping half the aeroplane apart, when it was designed. Wherever it was French or British philosophy, I wouldn't care to comment.
Oh, that video of the display jet (T-bird as well) actually doing a fairly fast roll (pylons only of course) was about 0.8 seconds for the mid 180 degrees of the roll (the middle 180 degrees is going to be at a maximum rate.). .. So it did roll comfortably at approx 220 degrees/sec in the clean. As Cubes says, no major back pressure at the same time though. Others will say what they could do with bolt ons..
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The Jag for the engineers was a doddle compared to the Heaps and Tonkas.. Someone actually tried to think about putting items in places were they could be removed and installed at without ripping half the aeroplane apart, when it was designed. Wherever it was French or British philosophy, I wouldn't care to comment.
Certainly not a British idea, British engineering design worked on the principal of Gynaecology, poking around in the dark at items some distance from the little access hole, the only advantage being on the whole it tended to smell better.
.
Last edited by NutLoose; 6th Oct 2013 at 10:31.
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Unless you wanted to access the F4 fuel tank 
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I was going to mention the centre group..
Retorquing the Fin rear spar attatchment bolts and wirelocking them.. Pain..
Towards the end it was getting a bit like Harrier world of Wing off.. Nah it wasn't..
Retorquing the Fin rear spar attatchment bolts and wirelocking them.. Pain..
Towards the end it was getting a bit like Harrier world of Wing off.. Nah it wasn't..
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I still have a row of very faint row of scars down my arm that I got when falling of a Health and Safety none approved up ended chock whilst working in the F2 tank, my bare arm scraped down the N1 tank bolt end threads tearing a perfectly pitched row of cuts..
I also have a finger tip fatter than the others that I lowered an adour onto in the cradle, such was the pain I let go of the electric crane control that swung away from me, I had to stand their patiently awaiting it completing its swing and managing to grab it with one hand, winched the engine back off my finger..
I also have a finger tip fatter than the others that I lowered an adour onto in the cradle, such was the pain I let go of the electric crane control that swung away from me, I had to stand their patiently awaiting it completing its swing and managing to grab it with one hand, winched the engine back off my finger..
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Thanks for timing that video Alber. Could you guesstimate an entry speed for that roll please?
Could anyone comment on any pitching moment due to flap deployment too? My assumption is that the nose pitched down slightly with increasing flap deployment to reduce the wing alpha, but that is only a guess.
Thanks.
Could anyone comment on any pitching moment due to flap deployment too? My assumption is that the nose pitched down slightly with increasing flap deployment to reduce the wing alpha, but that is only a guess.
Thanks.
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Alber,
the display slow flypast was done at 17 alpha and about 122kt. Never pushed that one as when we simulated losing an engine at that point, it needed a sharp bit of stick and throttle juggling to get out of it.
The 20 alpha could be done with care once the tanks were empty - didnt lose at 1v1 often because I cheated!
As for being out of control below 500ft over moon country... still gives me a shudder nearly 20 years later.
Top jet and top people though.
Is Newt the same as who nabbed my IP-TGT map off me as we walked out at Chivenor and then bollocked me for missing the plank over stream?...
the display slow flypast was done at 17 alpha and about 122kt. Never pushed that one as when we simulated losing an engine at that point, it needed a sharp bit of stick and throttle juggling to get out of it.
The 20 alpha could be done with care once the tanks were empty - didnt lose at 1v1 often because I cheated!
As for being out of control below 500ft over moon country... still gives me a shudder nearly 20 years later.
Top jet and top people though.
Is Newt the same as who nabbed my IP-TGT map off me as we walked out at Chivenor and then bollocked me for missing the plank over stream?...
Code:
Is Newt the same as who nabbed my IP-TGT map off me as we walked out at Chivenor and then bollocked me for missing the plank over stream?...
newt would struggle to find either a plank or a steam!!
He was, after all, ex-Lightnings, so even finding a bear or a bison or a badger would be a challenge - without help!!
Last edited by ex-fast-jets; 7th Oct 2013 at 06:55.
Cubes,
I remember watching the S-VHS video of your 'uncommanded roll' over moon country at 500kts+ with the alpha warning bleeping as you bottomed out at not many feet. Great jet though despite its little idiosyncrosies. Take care.
GM
I remember watching the S-VHS video of your 'uncommanded roll' over moon country at 500kts+ with the alpha warning bleeping as you bottomed out at not many feet. Great jet though despite its little idiosyncrosies. Take care.
GM
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Tonka 777, entry speed would be as LM said, 400 Knts minimum.
As for flap deployment, a certain Jagmate of a number plate disposition told me trim changes with flaps were not gentle, nor were trim changes with selection of burner or deselection and the air brake tail plane compensation wasn't great in some configuations (pitching up moments for extension and vice versa for retraction even with the minimal compensation by the autostab system).
The large tailplane movement was mainly to cater for the changes of handling with the flaps lowered.. That could cause problems in the more extreme areas of the flight envelope. That was written by a BAe test pilot.
As for flap deployment, a certain Jagmate of a number plate disposition told me trim changes with flaps were not gentle, nor were trim changes with selection of burner or deselection and the air brake tail plane compensation wasn't great in some configuations (pitching up moments for extension and vice versa for retraction even with the minimal compensation by the autostab system).
The large tailplane movement was mainly to cater for the changes of handling with the flaps lowered.. That could cause problems in the more extreme areas of the flight envelope. That was written by a BAe test pilot.
Last edited by Alber Ratman; 7th Oct 2013 at 15:11.
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Never seen this before.. Some posters in this thread had a hand in this..
Exactly as said.. XX116, amazing that aircraft being virtually the only one non IFR capable GR1A (and 3A), survived almost to the bitter end. Loved it when an authoriser planned it for a tanker sortie!
Exactly as said.. XX116, amazing that aircraft being virtually the only one non IFR capable GR1A (and 3A), survived almost to the bitter end. Loved it when an authoriser planned it for a tanker sortie!
Last edited by Alber Ratman; 7th Oct 2013 at 15:40.
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Thank you Alber.
I have been told previously that the air brakes were perforated after the prototype pitched up very violently with air brake extension. The prototype of course had solid, non perforated air brakes.
I'd be interested in just how non gentle the trim changes were with flap deployment, if possible. Particularly, i'd like to know which way the trim changed.
Thanks.
I have been told previously that the air brakes were perforated after the prototype pitched up very violently with air brake extension. The prototype of course had solid, non perforated air brakes.
I'd be interested in just how non gentle the trim changes were with flap deployment, if possible. Particularly, i'd like to know which way the trim changed.
Thanks.
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Seen some head up S-VHS of a Jag being rolled at below 350 Knts, the rolls being done as the aircraft was under restrictions in speed for op reasons, but with a backseater engineer onboard (and the explaination that aeros in a Jag were more comfortable above 400 knts). Also seen Nutlooses loops, 4 G and 10K ft of airspace is not an overestimation..