Looking for advice: ex Jaguar GR1(a) pilots/maint.
By the way..................
Enjoy the relative peace and quiet on this thread at the moment - the ex-Lightning Jag Mates are all in London getting pi$$ed and telling WIWOL stories - again!!
Wait until tomorrow!!
Enjoy the relative peace and quiet on this thread at the moment - the ex-Lightning Jag Mates are all in London getting pi$$ed and telling WIWOL stories - again!!
Wait until tomorrow!!
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I'm also building a Jaguar simulator model, and have a couple of questions to ask, if nobody minds?
Firstly, Roll Rate's. I am aware that rapid rolling can cause the aircraft to depart, but what sort of roll rates would be seen in normal Jaguar operations?
Secondly, similar to the thread about Buccaneer performance, were there any looping restrictions, or best practices used on the Jaguar? I gather it bled off quite a lot of airspeed going over the top of the loop, due to the induced drag. Does anyone have any specific numbers for speed or altitude loss during high alpha manoeuvres, such as looping?
Thank you all.
Firstly, Roll Rate's. I am aware that rapid rolling can cause the aircraft to depart, but what sort of roll rates would be seen in normal Jaguar operations?
Secondly, similar to the thread about Buccaneer performance, were there any looping restrictions, or best practices used on the Jaguar? I gather it bled off quite a lot of airspeed going over the top of the loop, due to the induced drag. Does anyone have any specific numbers for speed or altitude loss during high alpha manoeuvres, such as looping?
Thank you all.
I could answer that but it would be a big post and we would get the usual Jaguar bashing fraternity on thread in no time.
You need an experienced Jaguar pilot like me to answer it.
As an ex-Jaguar display pilot I know a little bit about Jaguar handling on the limits.
Try Wholi.
You need an experienced Jaguar pilot like me to answer it.
As an ex-Jaguar display pilot I know a little bit about Jaguar handling on the limits.
Try Wholi.
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Well help the guy instead of massaging your Ego..
Ex Jag Eng
Ex Jag Eng
Last edited by NutLoose; 4th Oct 2013 at 14:47.
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The only one that had the latest engines Installed was the Jaguar skin painted one, and then only briefly.. BTW
Still what's gone is gone, the majority of the ones left in the RAF are FI life ex on the wings.
Still what's gone is gone, the majority of the ones left in the RAF are FI life ex on the wings.
Last edited by NutLoose; 4th Oct 2013 at 14:51.
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Very sad to see them left out in the cold (sorry "stored" 
) like this at Bentwaters 
For the "hard of hearing" ... the T Bird in the foreground is XX842
Image Credit as shown
) like this at Bentwaters For the "hard of hearing" ... the T Bird in the foreground is XX842
Image Credit as shown
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The RAF ones are still partially flying, the wings were swopped on some of the Cosford ones and they went off to fly in Oman.
Saw the Spotty Jag doing runs with the uprated engines RR were offering to the Indians as an upgrade, to show they would fit etc.
Saw the Spotty Jag doing runs with the uprated engines RR were offering to the Indians as an upgrade, to show they would fit etc.
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Jaguars looped OK, just minimum entry speed and height like anything else, got video taken by a mate using my camera to film his backseat trip. Jaguar could fly inverted but only for a short time (shorter if in burner) due to fuel system would starve the engines HP fuel circuit due to its design.. Excessive Rapid Rolling at High Alpha was a sure way to put the aeroplane into a departure in publications I have seen from the national archives (The IFS Jaguar 10 year report). That publication gave all the reasons why the Jag wanted to depart at the edge of the flight envelope, but no roll rates. All I know is that the rapid roll I saw in a clean T Bird was at a guess between 120 - 150 deg/sec (that was 17 years ago) and we didn't do a complete roll. I was told that a 3/4 roll was about considered about a safe as it was to do with any load onboard. I have seen the 16 Sqn display jag do a full roll on a video (clean).. It didn't look particulary happy at the end of it, the video isn't on Youtube any more but thank god for Youtube Downloader, I have it at home. Watch and stopwatch will give you a rate..
. The accurate answers is all in the RTS document that is still classified or known by our belearned Drivers..
Alber , Jag Eng.
. The accurate answers is all in the RTS document that is still classified or known by our belearned Drivers..Alber , Jag Eng.
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The loop I did took in most of the sky Lol, I think we entered about 10,000 and went over the top at about 22,000.. saw the video of the Jag departing, seem to remember it wasn't a very clean affair
Last edited by NutLoose; 4th Oct 2013 at 15:37.
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Watch the third episode of the BBC "Test Pilot" programme from the mid eighties about the training at ETPS Boscombe (still on Youtube I believe). The aircraft used for the single seater trials was the Sea Cat M05, after the cancellation of the Maritime programme.. It was known by model trials that the jaguar was a beast when departed, the single seater proved it.. The twin sticker was worse.. (and no it is not fuel coming out of the intakes , the aircraft did have smoke generators in the back of the engines to investigate the surging/flame outs that invariablely occured)..
Part of my display included a very slow roll and a 4 point hesitation roll at 500ft AGL.
The aeroplane was perfectly happy provided the entry speed was 400kts minimum.
The aeroplane was perfectly happy provided the entry speed was 400kts minimum.
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Yep ... I remember watching the Jag spinning sequence on Test Pilot all those 30 years ago ... 
But forgot that Episode 4 covered a review of the Jag Nav fit ...
But forgot that Episode 4 covered a review of the Jag Nav fit ...
When I was on the staff at Lossie, a certain Wg Cdr TP from Boggum Down popped up to have his 2 hour conversion. 'Can I spin it Derek?', he asked. I referred him to the film inserted above. 'You need 40000 ft and even then you probably would not recover'. Even if you do, the engines will have melted. Be sure to bang out above 10,000 ft'
He telephoned a few days later. 'Derek' he said, 'You were quite right. It did not recover.
Silly arse!
He telephoned a few days later. 'Derek' he said, 'You were quite right. It did not recover.
Silly arse!
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Thanks for all the replies so far. Its great to read all of the views and opinions.
Sod the Jag basher's Lightning Mate, stop teasing us and let us hear some of your stories.
Alber; would you be able to send me a copy of that video of the 16 Sqn Display Jaguar completing a roll?
I have collected quite a few videos from youtube with the intention of timing the roll rate, but its difficult to know the speed of the aircraft when the roll is commenced, and i'd like to ascertain roll rates over a wide range of speeds.
I have a copy of the BAE film showing the spinning trials here somewhere. If anyone would like it, i'll try and dig it out.
Lightning Mate, would you, or any of the other Jaguar Display Pilots that may be reading, consider typing out a brief description of a Jaguar display if i can find a suitable video on youtube? Something along the lines of, take off, 2g climb until n knots, then bunt to level out, climb to x thousand feet for a fast pass at n knots etc?
Thanks all.
Sod the Jag basher's Lightning Mate, stop teasing us and let us hear some of your stories.
Alber; would you be able to send me a copy of that video of the 16 Sqn Display Jaguar completing a roll?
I have collected quite a few videos from youtube with the intention of timing the roll rate, but its difficult to know the speed of the aircraft when the roll is commenced, and i'd like to ascertain roll rates over a wide range of speeds.
I have a copy of the BAE film showing the spinning trials here somewhere. If anyone would like it, i'll try and dig it out.
Lightning Mate, would you, or any of the other Jaguar Display Pilots that may be reading, consider typing out a brief description of a Jaguar display if i can find a suitable video on youtube? Something along the lines of, take off, 2g climb until n knots, then bunt to level out, climb to x thousand feet for a fast pass at n knots etc?
Thanks all.
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Sharpend, that incident you talk about was in 1974? First RAF Jag lost was a T Bird from Boscombe with the crew banging out OK. Engine fire in a lot of the web reports, a Kew released RAF file says "Departed during high incidence clearance trials with stores" . It stopped the T-birds from flying with certain things dangling underneath for a while..
BTW the captain of the A/C was an A&AEE Wg Cdr..
BTW the captain of the A/C was an A&AEE Wg Cdr..
Last edited by Alber Ratman; 4th Oct 2013 at 22:49. Reason: Meat on the bones of a good story?
Alber, yes you may be right. I was at Lossie 74 - 77 before going down to 6 Sqn at Colt. But that was almost 40 years ago now, so my memory of exact dates dims just slightly.
If my memory serves me correctly, the T Bird was a little more aggressive in a spin. The trials that did take place used a special anti-spin parachute to recover. We were told that use of the brake parachute would only result in it wrapping itself around the cockpit.
Then no ejection!
If my memory serves me correctly, the T Bird was a little more aggressive in a spin. The trials that did take place used a special anti-spin parachute to recover. We were told that use of the brake parachute would only result in it wrapping itself around the cockpit.
Then no ejection!
Last edited by sharpend; 5th Oct 2013 at 10:16.
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Alber,
My recollection of the Boscombe event has the A Sqn Wg Cdr riding in the back, having only just arrived on the Unit, to 'observe' the profiles being flown. That's not to say he did not get 'hands on' at some stage but I doubt it was during the test point manoeuvring leading to the departure.
lm
My recollection of the Boscombe event has the A Sqn Wg Cdr riding in the back, having only just arrived on the Unit, to 'observe' the profiles being flown. That's not to say he did not get 'hands on' at some stage but I doubt it was during the test point manoeuvring leading to the departure.
lm