VC10 Retirement
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My pics are in the link Topgas, hope you are not mixing them up with savannahs 
which are stunning.
Really was an excellent day, lots of stories where I was standing too from people who had worked on or flew in them or flew them.
which are stunning. Really was an excellent day, lots of stories where I was standing too from people who had worked on or flew in them or flew them.
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VC 10 Vancouver
Sorry Lamin, but they must have had a day off, or maybe not even been born! XV 101 was definitely in Vancouver 25th/26th Feb 1988 and I can't believe there were no others before yours.
Always one to take in local culture, Reindeer steak wasn't the best choice I've ever made but the short time I was there I remember it as one of the nicest places I was lucky enough to visit.
It was the last stop on a trainer that took in Little Rock, Hickam, Midway and Tokyo and the leg from Okinawa to Tokyo saw me past 2000 hrs in 1A.
In Tokyo we found a little bar where it seemed like open mike night. Karaoke hadn't taken off in the UK, if indeed it had arrived, so you can imagine how pleased the locals were when we joined in with every song.
Happy days
Always one to take in local culture, Reindeer steak wasn't the best choice I've ever made but the short time I was there I remember it as one of the nicest places I was lucky enough to visit.
It was the last stop on a trainer that took in Little Rock, Hickam, Midway and Tokyo and the leg from Okinawa to Tokyo saw me past 2000 hrs in 1A.
In Tokyo we found a little bar where it seemed like open mike night. Karaoke hadn't taken off in the UK, if indeed it had arrived, so you can imagine how pleased the locals were when we joined in with every song.
Happy days
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Fight Deck?
Topgas,
Not sure if you've compared pics of the flight deck then and now, yes of course the throttles at the Engs station are as was but I think you'd be surprised at how much is just as it was when it rolled out of the factory on day 1. Not that it made any difference, the new bits just made her legal, she was still a complete star and so very beautiful to fly.....
Not sure if you've compared pics of the flight deck then and now, yes of course the throttles at the Engs station are as was but I think you'd be surprised at how much is just as it was when it rolled out of the factory on day 1. Not that it made any difference, the new bits just made her legal, she was still a complete star and so very beautiful to fly.....
Last edited by Axel-Flo; 27th Sep 2013 at 19:49.
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Apologies if I have overlooked the question and answer, but why is the cockpit section painted a different colour to the remainder of the fuselage?
Last edited by Al R; 27th Sep 2013 at 20:56.
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I should imagine heat issues and a harder wearing finish.
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They were both the same on the last two, appears to take in the front toilets back to about the fwd galley.
Last edited by NutLoose; 27th Sep 2013 at 21:50.
Holy crap...youall mean during those hours I sat in the cockpit, when it was shiny white, I was exposed to radiation.....dribblr dribblr.
I think that grey paintjob was MOD leftover from a navy shipyard in Glasgow..... around 1940... and its purpose was to reflect German radar!
I think that grey paintjob was MOD leftover from a navy shipyard in Glasgow..... around 1940... and its purpose was to reflect German radar!
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Nice article about the final flight of the VC10 into Brunty piloted by the Staish
End of An Era: Last Ever VC10 Flight Completed: key.Aero, Military Aviation
Surely he didn't pinch the logos off the yokes, they're both gone
. 
End of An Era: Last Ever VC10 Flight Completed: key.Aero, Military Aviation
Surely he didn't pinch the logos off the yokes, they're both gone
.
Last edited by NutLoose; 29th Sep 2013 at 17:33.
Saintsman,
Forgive me if you've done more than my 2000 hrs in it, but "Flight Deck" always sounded a bit pretentious, and perhaps disrespectful to naval aviation. The only difficulty I had with calling the VC10's salon a "cockpit" was what term to use when the a/c were all sold and I converted to the B707. Like moving from a Bentley to an Austin Seven. One of our disgruntled captains coined the term "broom cupboard", but that wasn't guaranteed to assist with getting the trainers to sign the necessary paperwork...
After the 'Ten, the B707 pilot and F/E's panels were an ergonomic nightmare. And then there were the systems...
Forgive me if you've done more than my 2000 hrs in it, but "Flight Deck" always sounded a bit pretentious, and perhaps disrespectful to naval aviation. The only difficulty I had with calling the VC10's salon a "cockpit" was what term to use when the a/c were all sold and I converted to the B707. Like moving from a Bentley to an Austin Seven. One of our disgruntled captains coined the term "broom cupboard", but that wasn't guaranteed to assist with getting the trainers to sign the necessary paperwork...
After the 'Ten, the B707 pilot and F/E's panels were an ergonomic nightmare. And then there were the systems...
And the view from the 707 windscreen was a bit looking out of a letter box!
Stall Protection
Hello all VC10 pilots and F/Es, not to mention ground engineers,
As some of you may have noticed, the Tech Log forum discussions in the aftermath of the AF447 accident have widened into a general discussion on Airbus FBW stall protection, including phase-advance.
Like the BAC1-11, the 'Ten had phase-advanced stall protection: probably on the pre-stall engine-ignition; definitely on the stick-shaker; and maybe on the stick-push. It may have been introduced or modified after initial entry into service with BOAC in 1964, following the BAC 1-11 test-fliight accident in October 1963.
Although the RAF didn't get its first a/c until several years later, any technical details or merely anecdotes from RAF service would be of interest.
For example, how common was it to get ignition and/or shake in turbulence/windshear at high altitude, and during flaps & slats retraction heavy-hot-high?
Chris
As some of you may have noticed, the Tech Log forum discussions in the aftermath of the AF447 accident have widened into a general discussion on Airbus FBW stall protection, including phase-advance.
Like the BAC1-11, the 'Ten had phase-advanced stall protection: probably on the pre-stall engine-ignition; definitely on the stick-shaker; and maybe on the stick-push. It may have been introduced or modified after initial entry into service with BOAC in 1964, following the BAC 1-11 test-fliight accident in October 1963.
Although the RAF didn't get its first a/c until several years later, any technical details or merely anecdotes from RAF service would be of interest.
For example, how common was it to get ignition and/or shake in turbulence/windshear at high altitude, and during flaps & slats retraction heavy-hot-high?
Chris
My memory is shaky but I think the standard practice was to switch on the ignition in severe turbulance at altitude. Didn't the F/E have those switches under a plastic lid in front of his thrust levers?
Like you Chris I converted from VC10 to B707 and conclude as you...we said it was liking a Rolls Royce to a wheelbarrow. The one contention about the wheelbarrow analogy is that the B707 front wheels sometimes didn't even come down...twice I had to manually lower the nose gear, but I never had to use the 'Hudson' bar...anyone remember, or use that?
edit...sorry, just had a senior moment...the gadget to manually lower the main gear was called a 'Johnson' bar...now where to hell was it stowed?
Like you Chris I converted from VC10 to B707 and conclude as you...we said it was liking a Rolls Royce to a wheelbarrow. The one contention about the wheelbarrow analogy is that the B707 front wheels sometimes didn't even come down...twice I had to manually lower the nose gear, but I never had to use the 'Hudson' bar...anyone remember, or use that?
edit...sorry, just had a senior moment...the gadget to manually lower the main gear was called a 'Johnson' bar...now where to hell was it stowed?
Last edited by Davita; 13th Nov 2013 at 07:24.
"Phase advance"
'Morning Davita,
My memory is shaky but I think the standard practice was to switch on the ignition in severe turbulance at altitude. Didn't the F/E have those switches under a plastic lid in front of his thrust levers?
You're right, but IIRC that's a fairly common precaution on all jets. The stall prot on the VC10 (and probably the One-Eleven) came in the sequence of the three stages I mentioned, at ascending values of AoA. It's the "phase-advance" feature that we're particularly interested to understand on the current Airbuses. Just to remind you and maybe others: if the system detects a rapid rise in AoA, it can anticipate an imminent exceedance and trigger the relevant protection before the nominated AoA is reached.
This appears to have happened on an A340 on a NAT Track in 2001. First an overspeed tripped the autopilot. About 10 seconds later, a stall protection mode was activated, due to a severe but brief upgust which triggered it by "phase advance". In the absence of any stick movement by the crew, the system sought to maintain a safe level of AoA: the minimum AoA in the stall protection range. That resulted in a pitch-up, and the a/c entered a zoom-climb. Safe aerodynamically, if untidy, but there was another a/c above...
The only thing that event has in common with the VC10 is the phase-advanced triggering of stall protection. I've had stick-shaker several times on the One-Eleven at normal speeds in turbulence, and I think on the VC10 as well.
On the 'Ten, you'll remember, the most (only?) critical flight phase was the clean-up after take-off. IIRC, the acceleration had to be very steady to achieve a target of V2+60 by the time the slow retractions of flaps and slats were completed. When heavy, V2+60 was only a few knots below the flap limiting speed. Out of Entebbe and Nairobi for London, it was a common thing for the F/E to see and call the pre-stall ignition lights flickering on his panel (didn't have any female F/Es...). If you saw you were likely to exceed the flap-limiting speed, pulling-back on the yoke could (IIRC) in itself invoke the phase-advance stall detection.
That's what I'm asking you more-recent VC10 flyers to tell me about.
My memory is shaky but I think the standard practice was to switch on the ignition in severe turbulance at altitude. Didn't the F/E have those switches under a plastic lid in front of his thrust levers?
You're right, but IIRC that's a fairly common precaution on all jets. The stall prot on the VC10 (and probably the One-Eleven) came in the sequence of the three stages I mentioned, at ascending values of AoA. It's the "phase-advance" feature that we're particularly interested to understand on the current Airbuses. Just to remind you and maybe others: if the system detects a rapid rise in AoA, it can anticipate an imminent exceedance and trigger the relevant protection before the nominated AoA is reached.
This appears to have happened on an A340 on a NAT Track in 2001. First an overspeed tripped the autopilot. About 10 seconds later, a stall protection mode was activated, due to a severe but brief upgust which triggered it by "phase advance". In the absence of any stick movement by the crew, the system sought to maintain a safe level of AoA: the minimum AoA in the stall protection range. That resulted in a pitch-up, and the a/c entered a zoom-climb. Safe aerodynamically, if untidy, but there was another a/c above...
The only thing that event has in common with the VC10 is the phase-advanced triggering of stall protection. I've had stick-shaker several times on the One-Eleven at normal speeds in turbulence, and I think on the VC10 as well.
On the 'Ten, you'll remember, the most (only?) critical flight phase was the clean-up after take-off. IIRC, the acceleration had to be very steady to achieve a target of V2+60 by the time the slow retractions of flaps and slats were completed. When heavy, V2+60 was only a few knots below the flap limiting speed. Out of Entebbe and Nairobi for London, it was a common thing for the F/E to see and call the pre-stall ignition lights flickering on his panel (didn't have any female F/Es...). If you saw you were likely to exceed the flap-limiting speed, pulling-back on the yoke could (IIRC) in itself invoke the phase-advance stall detection.
That's what I'm asking you more-recent VC10 flyers to tell me about.
Last edited by Chris Scott; 13th Nov 2013 at 10:31.
Thanks for the morning greeting Chris...actually it's 9:30pm where I am....hehehe
Sorry cannot help with the technical of the stall protection system. I've forgotten or, more likely, I never knew! but I do recall it was advanced at the time
However, I was the VC10 Sim F/E senior instructor for 3 years and I do recall introducing the stall system to converting crews . We would ask the trainee pilots to purposely stall the sim and recover. Some pilots really put themselves into the training and I can say that the stick-push was frighteningly fierce. Our training consisted that they should make every effort to prevent it becoming active. I think they got the message!
In all my flights on the 10 I only heard the shaker once, when my Captain, showing off to dignitaries, did a max thrust/V2 climb...but it only blurped for a second or two. That was probably that phase advance you talk about as we were nowhere near stalling..we were accelerating and climbing at an astonishing rate.
I seem to remember discussing...maybe we should de-activate the stall warning C/B for air shows, but that went nowhere.
Sorry cannot help with the technical of the stall protection system. I've forgotten or, more likely, I never knew! but I do recall it was advanced at the time
However, I was the VC10 Sim F/E senior instructor for 3 years and I do recall introducing the stall system to converting crews . We would ask the trainee pilots to purposely stall the sim and recover. Some pilots really put themselves into the training and I can say that the stick-push was frighteningly fierce. Our training consisted that they should make every effort to prevent it becoming active. I think they got the message!
In all my flights on the 10 I only heard the shaker once, when my Captain, showing off to dignitaries, did a max thrust/V2 climb...but it only blurped for a second or two. That was probably that phase advance you talk about as we were nowhere near stalling..we were accelerating and climbing at an astonishing rate.
I seem to remember discussing...maybe we should de-activate the stall warning C/B for air shows, but that went nowhere.
The only occasions I recall getting the stick shaker during normal flight was if the AoA probes hadn't been correctly set up. However, the lift rate modifier and pahse advance were more sensitive during slatless approaches and would often cause a brief rattle during the approach at around VAT+10.
We had one K2 which had never had the wires from the lift rate modifier connected - some idle git at the factory had just stuffed the wires behind the unit and it wasn't discovered until 'Scrapheap Challenge' at St Athan did a major service....
I had the stick pusher on a flapless approach once - and yes, it can be overpowered by the pilot! The aircraft had been sitting around at Incirlik for weeks and was just back at Brize - this was probably the first flapless approach it had flown for months. We later figured that the AoA probes were sticking due to all the dust and lack of washing at Incirlik, so had perhaps jumped and detected a spurious high rate of AoA change.... After which the aircraft were given a good clean when they returned from Incirlik.
A heavy K2 with a hight TPI value for take-off could be a real handful on departure. As soon as the flap/slat lever was selected in, the aileron upset would begin to run - whereas on all other VC10s that didn't happen until the flaps were at less than 14½°. This caused the centre of pressure to move inboard along the swept wing, pitching the aircraft nose-up. At the same time the TPI had to be reduced to the cruise value and flap limiting speeds observed - even worse if you then had to observe the '250 below 10' nanny limit. So it was a co-ordinated crew exercise to get the aircraft safely and smoothly cleaned up without busting any limits, then eased into a normal climb at which point the autopilot could be engaged in IAS hold....and breathe!
Dribble, mumble...tell that to today's magenta line kids with their AP in at 400 ft...mumble, dribble.....
We had one K2 which had never had the wires from the lift rate modifier connected - some idle git at the factory had just stuffed the wires behind the unit and it wasn't discovered until 'Scrapheap Challenge' at St Athan did a major service....
I had the stick pusher on a flapless approach once - and yes, it can be overpowered by the pilot! The aircraft had been sitting around at Incirlik for weeks and was just back at Brize - this was probably the first flapless approach it had flown for months. We later figured that the AoA probes were sticking due to all the dust and lack of washing at Incirlik, so had perhaps jumped and detected a spurious high rate of AoA change.... After which the aircraft were given a good clean when they returned from Incirlik.
A heavy K2 with a hight TPI value for take-off could be a real handful on departure. As soon as the flap/slat lever was selected in, the aileron upset would begin to run - whereas on all other VC10s that didn't happen until the flaps were at less than 14½°. This caused the centre of pressure to move inboard along the swept wing, pitching the aircraft nose-up. At the same time the TPI had to be reduced to the cruise value and flap limiting speeds observed - even worse if you then had to observe the '250 below 10' nanny limit. So it was a co-ordinated crew exercise to get the aircraft safely and smoothly cleaned up without busting any limits, then eased into a normal climb at which point the autopilot could be engaged in IAS hold....and breathe!
Dribble, mumble...tell that to today's magenta line kids with their AP in at 400 ft...mumble, dribble.....
Memory is a bit vague but I think it was XV101 after being in the hangar undergoing mods for an extended period. On the flight test, the stick shaker went when the flaps were moved from approach to land. Gave the crew a bit of a start it did.
The system was re-calibrated and sent up for another flight. Same result.
The problem was finally traced to corrosion on the contacts of the micro-switches in the flap drum switch. Where they hadn't been used for some time, they had oxidised and affected the resistance of the circuit, so in effect, it was incorrectly calibrated.
Best bit about the stick push had to be the klaxon though.
The system was re-calibrated and sent up for another flight. Same result.
The problem was finally traced to corrosion on the contacts of the micro-switches in the flap drum switch. Where they hadn't been used for some time, they had oxidised and affected the resistance of the circuit, so in effect, it was incorrectly calibrated.
Best bit about the stick push had to be the klaxon though.