IRA - Can we forgive and forget?
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I bet if you asked a Pro government soldier, a Talib and a Rebel fighter the rights and wrongs of their ROE......they will probably all think they are right naturally.
If you have every been asked to take a life, or try to kill someone...you will realise its a turbo **** conundrum. No right or wrong ultimately.....that is unless you take a black or white robot approach.
I'm sure there will be people lining to kill/denigrate me in the future because I served in Afghanistan.....
My mate John who is related to Ian Paisleys mothers milkman reckons he is a nasty piece of work....
The point has been raised above....if he has been invited.....then the point has been made. Forgiven.
If you have every been asked to take a life, or try to kill someone...you will realise its a turbo **** conundrum. No right or wrong ultimately.....that is unless you take a black or white robot approach.
I'm sure there will be people lining to kill/denigrate me in the future because I served in Afghanistan.....
My mate John who is related to Ian Paisleys mothers milkman reckons he is a nasty piece of work....
The point has been raised above....if he has been invited.....then the point has been made. Forgiven.
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Cokecan:
PIRA's penchant for "warnings" is not the magnanimous deed you seem to think. The purpose of the warnings was to allow the PIRA to further spread terror and stretch resources without any effort on their part. For every real warning there were several fake warnings where they are safe in the knowledge that once the warning has been given it cannot be ignored and once the authorities pay attention to the warning they must deploy all assets.
You also forget the many occasions where no warning was given.
anyone who disputes that mass casualties were not PIRA's intention in every attack they made ought to ask themselves why PIRA gave warnings in the first place.
You also forget the many occasions where no warning was given.
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A similar question was asked on ARRSE a while back. I posted this:
Maybe it's a generational thing. My Grandad couldn't stand Japs or Germans. To the day he died, he was convinced the reason we and the Americans had huge standing armies in Germany was to stop them from doing it again. Sod all to do with the commie hordes.
Whereas I, living in the freedom that his generation had afforded me, didn't mind the Germans one bit. They made great cars (a 1970s Audi vs a 1970s Austin Maxi was a joke!), and when I got posted there, I found I actually liked them, great work ethic, knew how to have fun, not much unruly youth crime, high standard of living.
So I can't stand anything to do with the Emerald toilet. The bastards were trying to kill me. Some of the outrages were unforgivable, and remain so to this day for me. Contrast with say Cork; I can't equate the savages of the North with Cork. Or Temple Bar (or whatever it's called) in Dublin. A good night out. Belfast? Londonderry? Not for me, thanks. So I'm like my Grandad. I'm sure my kids won't see it that way. But I lived through those times.
Whereas I, living in the freedom that his generation had afforded me, didn't mind the Germans one bit. They made great cars (a 1970s Audi vs a 1970s Austin Maxi was a joke!), and when I got posted there, I found I actually liked them, great work ethic, knew how to have fun, not much unruly youth crime, high standard of living.
So I can't stand anything to do with the Emerald toilet. The bastards were trying to kill me. Some of the outrages were unforgivable, and remain so to this day for me. Contrast with say Cork; I can't equate the savages of the North with Cork. Or Temple Bar (or whatever it's called) in Dublin. A good night out. Belfast? Londonderry? Not for me, thanks. So I'm like my Grandad. I'm sure my kids won't see it that way. But I lived through those times.
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cokecan
No it's not really complicated. That bomb killed those children! Simple! If he ordered it, he's a murderer.
How evil and murderous other people are doesn't reduce his culpability for his actions (your point Ralph).
I agree that over the years, many PIRA, so called warnings, were actually designed to maximise civilian casualties. cf Omagh (I know that wasn't PIRA but some other group of nutters).
There is no excuse for murder - whoever does it (including our own government) and for whatever reason.
Rgds SOS
How evil and murderous other people are doesn't reduce his culpability for his actions (your point Ralph).
I agree that over the years, many PIRA, so called warnings, were actually designed to maximise civilian casualties. cf Omagh (I know that wasn't PIRA but some other group of nutters).
There is no excuse for murder - whoever does it (including our own government) and for whatever reason.
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 18th Sep 2013 at 13:35.
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Oh if it were so simple. He was the boss, he ordered beatings, kneecapping, under car bombs and so much more. Even against his own people, lawyers who criticised him, journalists who wrote against him. Don't ever compare him with our military
Such a simple topic......Not!
Forgive.....possibly. Forget.....not possible.
The Hate on both sides is too deep....to strong....and too long lived to disappear in a single generation.
Civil Wars are like that aren't they?
What does one accomplish by continuing to carry that hatred around inside One's Heart year after year? All it does is eat at your own heart and happiness.
As long as Peace continues.....try to forgive.
Forgive.....possibly. Forget.....not possible.
The Hate on both sides is too deep....to strong....and too long lived to disappear in a single generation.
Civil Wars are like that aren't they?
What does one accomplish by continuing to carry that hatred around inside One's Heart year after year? All it does is eat at your own heart and happiness.
As long as Peace continues.....try to forgive.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Perhaps its just time to move on. The past cannot be undone. We have peace in NI. I remember the Warrington event and the dignity of the father of those kids and nothing excuses what happened. But nothing can change it.
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Navaleye, we most certainly do not have peace in Northern Ireland, we have relative peace.
For sure, there are 'politicians' on all sides of Stormont who have rather distasteful pasts and I wouldn't share a pint with any of them. Equally, to see multiple murderers released from The Maze as part of Good Friday was a very, very bitter pill to swallow. However, McGuinness, Adams etc are the same people who used their leadership and positions of authority to help create the relative peace. One could question the motives behind signing-up to the peace process but the reality is that the province is in a far better place than it was 15 years ago.
For sure, there are 'politicians' on all sides of Stormont who have rather distasteful pasts and I wouldn't share a pint with any of them. Equally, to see multiple murderers released from The Maze as part of Good Friday was a very, very bitter pill to swallow. However, McGuinness, Adams etc are the same people who used their leadership and positions of authority to help create the relative peace. One could question the motives behind signing-up to the peace process but the reality is that the province is in a far better place than it was 15 years ago.
Re Yozzer's comment, We (British taxpayers) all suffered, albeit indirectly. We will never know the true extent to which the rest of the UK has funded Ulster over the years, a large proportion of the budget being spent on security directly related to the activities of McG and his henchmen.
Apart from having blood on his hands, let us not forget the criminal side of the PIRA. It is said by those who know that A and McG harvested a not inconsiderable personal fortune. Indeed only there connections will ensure they sleep when the likes of the US are levering open the details of Swiss bank accounts.
Apart from having blood on his hands, let us not forget the criminal side of the PIRA. It is said by those who know that A and McG harvested a not inconsiderable personal fortune. Indeed only there connections will ensure they sleep when the likes of the US are levering open the details of Swiss bank accounts.
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I passed the centre this afternoon. All was quiet and I had calmed down. NI is not at peace, but it is a better place than in the 80s I suppose. Shy gets today's prize, sometimes you do have to accept things................ even if you can't forgive.
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Never met a pilot yet who checked and confirmed that all innocent folk had cleared the target area before bomb/ammo release. Doesn't justify Warrington, London, New York, Omagh, Dresden, Hiroshima etc. I know but we're all guilty. Doesn't it say somewhere 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'?
Can't forget what they/we did but will do my best to forgive. Isn't easy.
Can't forget what they/we did but will do my best to forgive. Isn't easy.
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What peace . 700 police officers injured in the last year, 700 POLICE OFFICERS INJURED IN PUBLIC DISORDER | Belfast Daily
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I think I'm going out on a limb here, but as a proud British citizen, I think it's time we put our hatred and our differences to rest. I personally think we take an unjustified moral high ground; Northern Ireland's Catholic population was treated in a manner akin to black people in the southern US for much of the mid-20th century.
I am in no way condoning the abhorrent way that the IRA acted throughout the entirety of the troubles, but let's not forget the acts that were committed in Ireland in the name of the British people. Frankly, our treatment of the Irish from the beginning of our occupation right up to their independence was nothing less than a disgrace. I'm sure there are many people in Dublin that can still vividly remember the army firing into innocent men, women and children in croke park. I know that there are certainly people in Derry who still reel from the fact that their unarmed friends and family were shot (some of them in the back).
Again, I'm not condoning how the IRA ever operated, but the resentment of many republicans towards the British is justifiable given our own history towards them, yet despite all this, the Queen was welcomed into Dublin on her tour of Ireland and I'm sure it was a bitter pill for some staunch republicans to swallow, but they accepted it and all that she represents to them.
I think it would be best for all parties involved to accept that terrible things have have been committed by both sides, but it is what it is and the past, regrettably, cannot be changed. We can, however, secure a better and more stable future if we allow history to remain in the past rather than the present.
Just my two cents
I am in no way condoning the abhorrent way that the IRA acted throughout the entirety of the troubles, but let's not forget the acts that were committed in Ireland in the name of the British people. Frankly, our treatment of the Irish from the beginning of our occupation right up to their independence was nothing less than a disgrace. I'm sure there are many people in Dublin that can still vividly remember the army firing into innocent men, women and children in croke park. I know that there are certainly people in Derry who still reel from the fact that their unarmed friends and family were shot (some of them in the back).
Again, I'm not condoning how the IRA ever operated, but the resentment of many republicans towards the British is justifiable given our own history towards them, yet despite all this, the Queen was welcomed into Dublin on her tour of Ireland and I'm sure it was a bitter pill for some staunch republicans to swallow, but they accepted it and all that she represents to them.
I think it would be best for all parties involved to accept that terrible things have have been committed by both sides, but it is what it is and the past, regrettably, cannot be changed. We can, however, secure a better and more stable future if we allow history to remain in the past rather than the present.
Just my two cents
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
And the winning entry in the overall comprehension section goes to Bastardeux...
I think it would be best for all parties involved to accept that terrible things have have been committed by both sides, but it is what it is and the past, regrettably, cannot be changed. We can, however, secure a better and more stable future if we allow history to remain in the past rather than the present.
Just my two cents
Just my two cents
Conscience?
The OP displays his by challenging himself over his feelings. McGuinness may or may not have done the same. If he has, he perhaps deserves forgiveness; otherwise he does not.
CG
CG