Dutch Must Pay Srebrenica Compensation

[Wensleydale]

there was no hint of actually defending the place, numbers of troops
notwithstanding.

Not strictly true. They were under hostile fire yet were unable to gain approval from the UN for air strikes to defend themselves despite very frequent requests. Surrounded, deserted by the UN commanders, and vastly outnumbered, what were they supposed to do? I believe that it was largely this event, by putting NATO troops in jeopardy and not giving them the means to achieve their tasks, that was a major contribution in causing NATO to bring the war to an end by an air campaign.

[Lima Juliet]

I can remember sitting over the top of Srebrenica watching the Serbs hammer the crap out of the town with artillery pieces - I ended up taking my NVGs off as I didn't want to watch it anymore. There were mud-movers of all nations screaming at the CAOC for permission to drop - no such permission came.

So does that make us all liable? Should we have ignored CAOC direction and intervened with the Serbs against our ROE? The rumour was that one nation's pilot did drop and was whisked away for Court Martial.

I really feel for these Dutch guys, they were put in a very difficult situation and probably did the most they could do. If I were the Dutch I would put in a counter claim against the UN/NATO asking what happened to the air support that they so desperately needed.

LJ

[Tankertrashnav]

Tanker
Find someone else to play with. This isn't about what I would have done.

Fair enough - my question can equally be asked of others on this thread and I therefore invite constructive and realistic suggestions from others on this thread who wish to contribute to the debate on what they thought the Dutch should have done in the circumstances they found themselves in. Comments on what the UN authorities should have done prior to this event are not in any way relevant to the decision taken by the Dutch commander - he was acting in the situation he found himself in - not the situation he would have liked to have been in.

[Momoe]

There are two issues here, the actions of the Dutch OC and the UNPROFOR command.

Dutch OC is not getting any positive support from command, overwhelming odds and the likelihood of a successful outcome negligible. Professional soldiers yes, however committing to defend would have resulted in heavy Dutch casualties and the massacre would occurred anyway.

UNPROFOR command, a peacekeeping force is almost an oxymoron in itself, however if command cannot make the necessary decisions and control reverted to the Dutch Government who aren't on the ground and do not have the intel available to UNPROFOR; then the UN should be liable not the Dutch.

Agree totally with other posters that a more robust stance earlier against clearly defined aggressors would have resulted in a different outcome.

[Basil]

Dutch Gov: "Thank you for your ruling, your Honour; very interesting. We will file it away most carefully."

[neilmac]

Unfair on Dutch

Having been on the inside: arriving the day of the massacre to my post in Sarajevo. I know the score and what went on, in my opinion General Janvier and UN Council are at fault. Don't forget we had Brit SF in that neck of the woods as well. In the next few months we had to fight tooth and nail asking for airstrikes with people not in theatre (politicians or military hierarchy who wouldn't make a decision) They are the guilty ones, but no doubt enjoying their pensions.

NM

[racedo]

Is not an attack on one NATO nations forces an attack on all ?
or does this not apply when nation is acting on UN's behalf ?

Seem to remember France acting unilaterally when some of its personnel dies in bombing a Serb arms dump and making them aware more could be on way.

[ORAC]

As a gut summary, this is the good guys being made to pay because they can't make the bad guys pay.

Which will inevitably mean less good guys will offer their services in future...

[Easy Street]

Should we have ignored CAOC direction and intervened with the Serbs against our ROE? The rumour was that one nation's pilot did drop and was whisked away for Court Martial.

At 20 years' distance it's easy to say "national rights of self-defence cannot be overruled by ROE".... but was this something that was discussed amongst aircrew at the time? I know that not all nations have the "defence of others" aspect to their self-defence law and it would be interesting to see if anyone knows how Dutch law would have viewed it.

Originally Posted by racedo

Is not an attack on one NATO nations forces an attack on all ?
or does this not apply when nation is acting on UN's behalf ?

Firstly, Article V only applies to attacks taking place in Europe or North America (which doesn't help in this case, but explains why Al Qaeda's early campaign against the US was all "exempt"). Secondly, there is a distinction in international law between "the State" and its forces - subject to all of international law's usual grey areas. An attack against a fighter squadron defending its homeland would be an attack on "the State", whereas an attack on the same squadron taking part in UN peacekeeping might not be. Or, to be mildly topical, shooting down a Turkish F-4 straying into Syrian airspace doesn't consitute an attack on Turkey because the aircraft was (allegedly) in the wrong place. Thirdly, Article V is not applied automatically when forces come under attack; the State under attack must invoke the Article. The US famously did so against Al Qaeda after 9/11.

[Tankertrashnav]

Which will inevitably mean less good guys will offer their services in future...

ORAC - I respectfully draw your attention to post #7 on this thread

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...eir-there.html

[Wander00]

"Less good guys", ie worse people, or fewer (as in Waitrose quick check-out). I'll get my coat...................

[Courtney Mil]

Well done, Tanker.

[neilmac]

Well said LJ, at AOCC CAS requests were sent days previous but no joy.
Felt so sorry for the Dutch troops left to deal with a situation most of us wouldnt know how to react. Left out to hang due to politicians and a French General. I often wonder if the French troops in charge of Sector Sarajevo were put in same situation would airstrikes have been forthcoming?

NM

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by Laarbruch72

The actions of the Dutch at Srebrenica were nothing short of negligent in allowing genocide to happen under their own noses, there was no hint of actually defending the place, numbers of troops notwithstanding. At least they've recognised this in recent years.

How familiar are you with the RoE and the UN Dual Key protocol for UNPROFOR?

There were mud-movers of all nations screaming at the CAOC for permission to drop - no such permission came.

One might also ask why the commanders on the ground didn't order a considerable reinforcement of the UN troops already there when they became aware the Dutch were no longer in control.

The root cause of that is dual key RoE and the UN C2-abortion.

The dumbacity of this ruling is reason enough for any nation to refuse a blue helmet mission unless explicit pre-emptive nullification of any charges like the above case are in the terms of reference for the force.

[Tinman74]

My time there was truly awful, the UN undecided on anything they wanted apart from the ROE, the Bosnians what ever the creed understanding that took the pi$$.

If only we had been undisciplined, maybe things wouldnt have happened.

[Trim Stab]

Dutch OC is not getting any positive support from command, overwhelming odds and the likelihood of a successful outcome negligible. Professional soldiers yes, however committing to defend would have resulted in heavy Dutch casualties and the massacre would occurred anyway.

I disagree. I was an UKMO (not UNMO) there at the time. The Dutch could have defended the UN compound and the Bosniaks sheltering therein. If they had at least defended the compound, the UN would have been forced to concede to the calls for air-strikes. It would not have prevented all the casualties, but the situation would have remained under control. If BritBat had been in control of Srebrenica the massacre would not have happened.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by Trim Stab

If BritBat had been in control of Srebrenica the massacre would not have happened.

Indeed. I seem to recall a certain LTC Riley of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers going outside of the UN command chain ... and the Fusiliers making the difference ... in Gorazde.

[Wensleydale]

The Dutch could have defended the UN compound and the Bosniaks sheltering
therein. If they had at least defended the compound, the UN would have been
forced to concede to the calls for air-strikes. It would not have prevented all
the casualties, but the situation would have remained under control. If BritBat
had been in control of Srebrenica the massacre would not have happened.

Speaking as someone who was on board the AWACS that was providing the link to CAOC that night..... I completely disagree with your assessment of the situation. My understanding was that the CAOC went through all means possible to secure the air strikes but the ROE were just too restrictive without the UN approval which was not forthcoming, regardless of the perils faced by the Dutch troops. I also understand that it was this failure to gain approval of air support for the Dutch that led to NATO nations taking over the air campaign and bringing the conflict to a conclusion.

[TwoDeadDogs]

hi all
If I may, the Dutch also restricted themselves. A friend who was out there with the UN was at a Dutch unit one day and they operated self-propelled guns. They came under fire from the Serbians and the Dutch replied with their heavy guns, without ringing home first. they fired 12 rounds per gun and stopped. When my friend asked why they stopped after just 12 rounds, he was told that that was all they were allowed, by order of Rotterdam or wherever, to have on hand. When somebody from home rang, enquiring loudly as to why they had fired on the Serbs, the situation was explained in short sentences and the phone put down...

regards
TDD

[4ROCK]

As Two Dead Dogs has already alluded to - the Dutch certainly didn't lack courage......they simply lacked the backing of the UN.

Sreb was always a powder keg and one which was far to tempting for the Serbs who were well aware that the 'safe' haven was not what it said on the tin. I was there a few months before the slaughter but even then the writing was plainly on the wall and UNPROFOR were powerless under their remit to put up a Custer's Last Stand. I don't blame or condone the actions of the Dutch in the pocket - they were in a no-win situation although once any fire fight broke out I suspect the cavalry (of whatever nation) wouldn't have been too far away - even if it wasn't delivered from the skies. The prospect of actually engaging (looking into the white's of their eyes) one of the main antagonists after witnessing some terrible outrages (as bad as Syria) would have been manna to heaven for a lot of the troops over there.

We can debate on here all day as to whether or not if it was in the BritBat AOR then would they have fought to the last Warrior left standing to protect the population? I like to think they would regardless of the consequences - what exactly would the UN have done if WW111 had broken out on their watch....?!