RAF Vs Turkish Air Force?
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While I appreciate we enjoy playing top trumps with aircraft capabilities, surely what we should be discussing is how on earth we come to a situation where we are discussing shooting down (or being shot down by) aircraft belonging to our main regional ally?
Shot one
Don't feel to bad. Back in 1987, over the blue waters of the Med, a USN F-14 9from USS Saratoge) shot down a USAF F-4, during an exercise.
I had thought we were allies, at the time ...
In 1992, the USS Saratoga fired off a NATO Sea Sparrow (IIRC, in surface to surface mode) at ... a Turkish frigate, killing 5. As above, I had thought we were allies!
EDIT: TCG Muavenet (Destroyer Minelayer?)
I think that the fact that "weapons tight" remained in place in this incident is a good thing. Possible indication of progress, eh?
Don't feel to bad. Back in 1987, over the blue waters of the Med, a USN F-14 9from USS Saratoge) shot down a USAF F-4, during an exercise.
I had thought we were allies, at the time ...
In 1992, the USS Saratoga fired off a NATO Sea Sparrow (IIRC, in surface to surface mode) at ... a Turkish frigate, killing 5. As above, I had thought we were allies!
EDIT: TCG Muavenet (Destroyer Minelayer?)
I think that the fact that "weapons tight" remained in place in this incident is a good thing. Possible indication of progress, eh?
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 4th Sep 2013 at 15:41.
Shall I jump in now and mention the RAFG Phantom - Jaguar blue on blue?
I wondered whether the F16s were what our guys had been scrambled to intercept TBH, given what I mentioned about previous TUAF sorties. It wouldn't surprise me if the Turks wanted to assess our capabilities over there.
I wondered whether the F16s were what our guys had been scrambled to intercept TBH, given what I mentioned about previous TUAF sorties. It wouldn't surprise me if the Turks wanted to assess our capabilities over there.
Aviator Extraordinaire
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Don't feel to bad. Back in 1987, over the blue waters of the Med, a USN F-14 9from USS Saratoge) shot down a USAF F-4, during an exercise.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
We were once intercepted over France, 2xMirage on one wing, 2xCF104 on the other. We had filed a CA48 and had a proper DipClear but in those days we refused to disclose aircraft type.
We came clean when they read the aircraft type and tail number over the radio. Fair cop.
We came clean when they read the aircraft type and tail number over the radio. Fair cop.
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Well, yes, lonewolf although arguably the diplomatic incompetence is more serious than those finger-trouble instances, even though this time nobody got killed. The same could also be said of yesterday's US/Israeli missile test. Had anyone else done this without notification it would have been regarded as highly provocative and reckless.
Whowhenwhy, I heard that story from one of the engineering lab techs at Uni when I was in the final year because he knew said Jag pilot. As I was told the Flt (?) in a previous life before change of career and getting commissioned, worked as an apprentice under the lab tech. Didn't it start off with flying at treetop level followed by a bit of ACN, early evening / late afternoon.
Last edited by chopper2004; 5th Sep 2013 at 21:10.
Stupid crap like this has happened before.
Such as during the Turkish Invasion of Cyprus in July 1974, when the Turkish Air Force mistook the Turkish destroyer KOCATEPE for a Greek ship and sank her, as well as damaging two other Turkish destroyers.
Jack
Such as during the Turkish Invasion of Cyprus in July 1974, when the Turkish Air Force mistook the Turkish destroyer KOCATEPE for a Greek ship and sank her, as well as damaging two other Turkish destroyers.
Jack
Yes indeed, 500N, and I should have added that I understand that the Turks initially tried to claim that a Royal Navy submarine was responsible for the sinking, which was really rather hard since it was the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary which rescued some of the survivors.
Indeed, I also seem to recall that the subsequent transfer of the survivors to another Turkish warship, which was done by helicopter, resulted in a major award for the pilot.
Jack
Indeed, I also seem to recall that the subsequent transfer of the survivors to another Turkish warship, which was done by helicopter, resulted in a major award for the pilot.
Jack
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Union Jack
Because of your post, I decided to go and read up on the Invasion
as it is not something I have read much on. Interesting events to say
the least.
Because of your post, I decided to go and read up on the Invasion
as it is not something I have read much on. Interesting events to say
the least.
In view of your interest 500N, here's some more detailed information, courtesy of HMS ANDROMEDA's webpage covering 1974 - 1976 :
"In 1974 Andromeda, together with other Royal Navy vessels including her sister ship Argonaut, helped evacuate British civilians from the Mediterranean island of Cyprus after the invasion by Turkey. Andromeda evacuated 293 of these civilians. During this conflict the Turkish Air Force mistakenly attacked and sank the Turkish Destroyer "Kocatepe" off Akrotiri. Andromeda came to the assistance of the destroyer and the helicopter, piloted by Lieutenant Iain McKechnie, rescued 72 Turkish sailors. Flying at night and in stormy conditions Lieutenant McKechnie flew constantly for over four hours and made 55 deck landings to transport the sailors to the safety of Andromeda. For this act of bravery Lieutenant McKechnie was awarded the Turkish Distinguished Service Medal by the Turkish Government, which he was allowed to wear, with permission granted by Her Majesty the Queen."
The then Commanding Officer, Captain (later Vice Admiral Sir) Bob Gerken also distinguished himself at the time of the Turkish invasion, as described in my post # 56 at http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...le-meze-3.html. The link quoted therein sadly leads to the obituary for Captain Ian McKechnie | Herald Scotland following his death at a very young age, and reveals that, having joined the Caterpillar Club whilst a Sea Vixen pilot before transferring to helicopters, he also won a QCVSA for the KOCATEPE rescue, as well as being awarded the OBE in a later appointment, and (on a lighter note regarding the airlift of the KOCATEPE survivors from the Turkish warship BERK ...
), "As she was a new vessel with no lighting on her flight deck, he instructed Turkish sailors to stand in a square, holding aloft RN-issue torches to create an illuminated horizon for landing. He later recalled: 'Different-sized, tiring Turks do not make for a very good horizon bar after two hours' ."
Quite a guy when all's said and done, and all very well worth a read.
Jack
"In 1974 Andromeda, together with other Royal Navy vessels including her sister ship Argonaut, helped evacuate British civilians from the Mediterranean island of Cyprus after the invasion by Turkey. Andromeda evacuated 293 of these civilians. During this conflict the Turkish Air Force mistakenly attacked and sank the Turkish Destroyer "Kocatepe" off Akrotiri. Andromeda came to the assistance of the destroyer and the helicopter, piloted by Lieutenant Iain McKechnie, rescued 72 Turkish sailors. Flying at night and in stormy conditions Lieutenant McKechnie flew constantly for over four hours and made 55 deck landings to transport the sailors to the safety of Andromeda. For this act of bravery Lieutenant McKechnie was awarded the Turkish Distinguished Service Medal by the Turkish Government, which he was allowed to wear, with permission granted by Her Majesty the Queen."
The then Commanding Officer, Captain (later Vice Admiral Sir) Bob Gerken also distinguished himself at the time of the Turkish invasion, as described in my post # 56 at http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...le-meze-3.html. The link quoted therein sadly leads to the obituary for Captain Ian McKechnie | Herald Scotland following his death at a very young age, and reveals that, having joined the Caterpillar Club whilst a Sea Vixen pilot before transferring to helicopters, he also won a QCVSA for the KOCATEPE rescue, as well as being awarded the OBE in a later appointment, and (on a lighter note regarding the airlift of the KOCATEPE survivors from the Turkish warship BERK ...
), "As she was a new vessel with no lighting on her flight deck, he instructed Turkish sailors to stand in a square, holding aloft RN-issue torches to create an illuminated horizon for landing. He later recalled: 'Different-sized, tiring Turks do not make for a very good horizon bar after two hours' ."Quite a guy when all's said and done, and all very well worth a read.
Jack
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Union Jack
Thanks for taking the time to do that. Some very interesting reading indeed.
I have read most of it, will keep reading later.
Thanks again
Thanks for taking the time to do that. Some very interesting reading indeed.
I have read most of it, will keep reading later.
Thanks again
Arclite
right about Greece (i should know i am Greek!), wrong about Turkey i suppose: far higher rate of growth and a 36% DEBT/GDP ratio compared to 90%+ for the UK
you'd be surprised here again. Serviceability even for the Hellenic (Greek) Air Force even at this dark hour would probably produce more available jets than the current RAF's fighter and attack ORBAT (a quick check suggests 700-800 aircraft of all kinds for the RAF to 500+ for the Greek AF yet only 210+ Typhoons+Tornadoes vs 280 Greek F-16s, M2000s, F-4s and A-7s).
Not to mention the size of the Greek (Hellenic) Air Force.
Beats me how these countries maintain such large arsenals of aircraft............ while we reduce ours to the bare bones. We really have got the Government we deserve haven't we.
Oh hang on, both counties are virtually bankrupt...................
Beats me how these countries maintain such large arsenals of aircraft............ while we reduce ours to the bare bones. We really have got the Government we deserve haven't we.
Oh hang on, both counties are virtually bankrupt...................
For me - The real question is how many are serviceable if they needed them.
Probably about 6 - ergo the number of Typhoons we have sent...............
Arc
Probably about 6 - ergo the number of Typhoons we have sent...............
Arc
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According to a well known paper
British jets in Cyprus scrambled to chase after Syrian planes that crossed into international airspace
RAF fighters sent to intercept Syrian planes in Cypriot airspace
The unidentified planes left after the launch
Two Turkish F-16s also flew to support the British Typhoons
RAF fighters sent to intercept Syrian planes in Cypriot airspace
The unidentified planes left after the launch
Two Turkish F-16s also flew to support the British Typhoons
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Shall I jump in now and mention the RAFG Phantom - Jaguar blue on blue?
I was always amazed he could get behind the Jag, it's got to be a bit of skilful manoeuvring right on the Phantoms stall point.
Last edited by NutLoose; 8th Sep 2013 at 22:26.
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The paper quoted senior air forces sources as it being two Syrian Mig 29s but stressed they DIDN'T enter Cypriot airspace and hence weren't intercepted. Interesting this should come out a week after the event. I don't regard the Star as the font of all knowledge but would one of their journos just make this up when they probably don't know a mig from a moulinex. Why would Assad want to rattle our cage when weve safely voted ourselves out of the picture and are official releases more speculative than this rumour network?
Last edited by ShotOne; 9th Sep 2013 at 07:01.
Chopper, I'd only end up googling it myself to make sure that I got the story correct. A quick scan of the interweb and you should find everything that you're after with the Jag/F4 story.
I'm sure that you'll find many more droll one-liners mentioning Jags and the curvature of the earth etc, though I'll admit that NutLoose's comment provides a new and original spin on an old theme.
Had thought that Assad's 29s were operating in a GR type role, with the 21s and 23s playing at AD... Why would he want to rattle our cage? Because he can? It's always interesting to know what the other side are doing...
I'm sure that you'll find many more droll one-liners mentioning Jags and the curvature of the earth etc, though I'll admit that NutLoose's comment provides a new and original spin on an old theme.
Had thought that Assad's 29s were operating in a GR type role, with the 21s and 23s playing at AD... Why would he want to rattle our cage? Because he can? It's always interesting to know what the other side are doing...
