MoD spent £40,000 on calling speaking clock
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Pontius, What time do all operational systems (Link 16, Havequick, Secure, GPS etc) all work on. Is that not the time that is relevant to aviators in the 21st C.
LJ, I tried to get the UFAF and USN to use TIM but they didn't seen to understand.
Smudge, Not great for the guy on the ground who doesn't get the Rolex.
LJ, I tried to get the UFAF and USN to use TIM but they didn't seen to understand.
Smudge, Not great for the guy on the ground who doesn't get the Rolex.
If the USAF and USN don't use Tim, the Link 16 etc may be different, the guy on the ground may not even have a telephone, and finally, remember who owns Universal Coordinate Time since we no longer afford GMT.
And then there is Newfie time. I still remember the Ops Clerk at Goose Bay who brought the time check written out on a piece of paper.
As Easy Street points out eloquently, Tim is at least a standard check in UK. Just hope that other forces use it too.
Multi-national aerial operations use UTC, and from what I can recall of the last set of operational SPINS I saw, they dictate something like "UTC as delivered by the Navstar GPS, modified by the GPS-UTC correction factor available at www.. "
Tim delivers GMT or BST depending on the time of year. Therefore, since to all intents and purposes GMT = UTC, Tim accurately delivers the global operational standard time (providing you remember to subtract an hour during BST!).
Tim delivers GMT or BST depending on the time of year. Therefore, since to all intents and purposes GMT = UTC, Tim accurately delivers the global operational standard time (providing you remember to subtract an hour during BST!).
PN,
Like you, I've experienced the 4.75 hour Newfie time lapse. My method to cope was to run on Zulu, from my watch, around the routes I did. It ensured I always felt knackered, but got home on time. I doubt that contributed anything intelligent to this conversation, but it strikes me, that's what we did.
Smudge
Like you, I've experienced the 4.75 hour Newfie time lapse. My method to cope was to run on Zulu, from my watch, around the routes I did. It ensured I always felt knackered, but got home on time. I doubt that contributed anything intelligent to this conversation, but it strikes me, that's what we did.
Smudge
GPS is used by all, if everybody uses GPS time your all singing from the same sheet. Doesn't matter if your watch stops, phones down, or you are briefed at different bases, it works. 40k saved.
While we are at it can someone tell me why MOD London needs to know thw time to the second? As they still seem to be in 1900's????
While we are at it can someone tell me why MOD London needs to know thw time to the second? As they still seem to be in 1900's????
Sevarg
So what happens when half of us are on Gallileo and the others on GPS? We will be 15 seconds adrift!
What happens when you are out of GPS coverage? Setting clocks by hand and voice commanded synchronisation stops us, to quote Blackadder, using TIM "saves from being at home to Mr Cockup..."
By the way, I don't believe it is the "MOD" that resides in Main Building, but the "MOD" that is all 3 Services.
LJ
So what happens when half of us are on Gallileo and the others on GPS? We will be 15 seconds adrift!
What happens when you are out of GPS coverage? Setting clocks by hand and voice commanded synchronisation stops us, to quote Blackadder, using TIM "saves from being at home to Mr Cockup..."
By the way, I don't believe it is the "MOD" that resides in Main Building, but the "MOD" that is all 3 Services.
LJ
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To the posters who blamed civil servants and desk jockeys for the speaking clock bill, you couldn't possibly be any further from the truth!
[Genuine question to any current mud-movers out there - is there really a "ban" and is anyone sticking up for your requirements against clueless bandwagon-jumping politicians?]
[Genuine question to any current mud-movers out there - is there really a "ban" and is anyone sticking up for your requirements against clueless bandwagon-jumping politicians?]
Oh, and another thing - as the old Chinese proverb says "by the time you see the bandwaggon, it's too late to jump on"
Now, what time is it, I'm off to bed.
Last edited by TomJoad; 23rd Aug 2013 at 23:01.
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So we're saying that the RAF (or indeed, UK Mil as a whole), has no central plan for timekeeping? Despite the 10s of billions spent on all manner of kit that requires accurate timekeeping to function, there is no standard reference that all can use?
In the absence of such a thing, units use a well known "accurate" reference. Yet (speaking as a telecom engineer), it won't be any more accurate than a second or even two by the time it gets to the end user. Even then, a "pip" is hardly accurate. Do you set your watch running at the start or end of the pip? Presumably, aircraft systems also have time references. How are they synced?
In the meantime, my phone gets its time (and timezone) from the network. My computer gets its time from the USN's time.gov. My watch gets its time from WWVB at Ft Collins. So does my alarm clock. They all keep time synchronously.
This isn't a difficult problem to crack.
In the absence of such a thing, units use a well known "accurate" reference. Yet (speaking as a telecom engineer), it won't be any more accurate than a second or even two by the time it gets to the end user. Even then, a "pip" is hardly accurate. Do you set your watch running at the start or end of the pip? Presumably, aircraft systems also have time references. How are they synced?
In the meantime, my phone gets its time (and timezone) from the network. My computer gets its time from the USN's time.gov. My watch gets its time from WWVB at Ft Collins. So does my alarm clock. They all keep time synchronously.
This isn't a difficult problem to crack.
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Roadster,
Even though I have never performed a time "hack" I do not believe it is "accuracy" that matters to the users of Tim. Anyway, don't get me on to the meaning of "accuracy" with my Physics teacher's head - I will bore myself.
I believe why use of Tim appears so widespread lies in its utility - it is so readily accessible. If all who need be are sync'd to it - its accuracy is irrelevant - as someone more qualified than me once said "time is relative". I see nothing inherently wrong in its use - quite elegant in fact - but it is a service that the MoD should perhaps in hindsight fund.
Tom
Even though I have never performed a time "hack" I do not believe it is "accuracy" that matters to the users of Tim. Anyway, don't get me on to the meaning of "accuracy" with my Physics teacher's head - I will bore myself.
I believe why use of Tim appears so widespread lies in its utility - it is so readily accessible. If all who need be are sync'd to it - its accuracy is irrelevant - as someone more qualified than me once said "time is relative". I see nothing inherently wrong in its use - quite elegant in fact - but it is a service that the MoD should perhaps in hindsight fund.
Tom
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Tom,
Understood, but I can't help thinking there's a couple of problems at play here.
If everyone's watch is on the same time, plus or minus a second, I suppose that's fine, so long as everyone's on the same reference. But it's not much good if everyone on a specific air force mission is on one time reference, and the Navy & Army are on another (assuming there's interaction). The Navy won't have access to TIM, and even if they did, they'd use a satellite to get there, and that will throw it off. GPS would seem to be the right system for the Navy.
Then there's the problem of machine timekeeping. If one system lags or leads another, then messages arrive out of sequence, or before "now". If their internal clocks run at different rates, then even though they may be set at the same initial start point, one may race compared with another. This is the purpose of "leap seconds", although in telecom systems, it is much finer granularity.
I just find it hard to believe that if there's two Typhoons on QRA, in the absence of anything else, the crews set their watches by an antiquated, inherently poorly granular audio system (i.e. TIM), and the aircraft themselves are on separate clocks. Perhaps this isn't the case, and it's an OPSEC issue. I do hope so.
Understood, but I can't help thinking there's a couple of problems at play here.
If everyone's watch is on the same time, plus or minus a second, I suppose that's fine, so long as everyone's on the same reference. But it's not much good if everyone on a specific air force mission is on one time reference, and the Navy & Army are on another (assuming there's interaction). The Navy won't have access to TIM, and even if they did, they'd use a satellite to get there, and that will throw it off. GPS would seem to be the right system for the Navy.
Then there's the problem of machine timekeeping. If one system lags or leads another, then messages arrive out of sequence, or before "now". If their internal clocks run at different rates, then even though they may be set at the same initial start point, one may race compared with another. This is the purpose of "leap seconds", although in telecom systems, it is much finer granularity.
I just find it hard to believe that if there's two Typhoons on QRA, in the absence of anything else, the crews set their watches by an antiquated, inherently poorly granular audio system (i.e. TIM), and the aircraft themselves are on separate clocks. Perhaps this isn't the case, and it's an OPSEC issue. I do hope so.
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Very slightly off-topic....
In a former life, I lived in Zambia when they brought out the first Speaking Clock. It was literally a bloke on the end of the line. He took ages to answer the phone, you could then hear his footsteps padding across the floor to the next room and back, before he said 'It is almost ten to eleven'.
Not sure if it was used by the ZAF!
In a former life, I lived in Zambia when they brought out the first Speaking Clock. It was literally a bloke on the end of the line. He took ages to answer the phone, you could then hear his footsteps padding across the floor to the next room and back, before he said 'It is almost ten to eleven'.
Not sure if it was used by the ZAF!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
If everyone's watch is on the same time, plus or minus a second, I suppose that's fine, so long as everyone's on the same reference. But it's not much good if everyone on a specific air force mission is on one time reference, and the Navy & Army are on another (assuming there's interaction). The Navy won't have access to TIM, and even if they did, they'd use a satellite to get there, and that will throw it off. GPS would seem to be the right system for the Navy.
Then there's the problem of machine timekeeping. If one system lags or leads another, then messages arrive out of sequence, or before "now". If their internal clocks run at different rates, then even though they may be set at the same initial start point, one may race compared with another. This is the purpose of "leap seconds", although in telecom systems, it is much finer granularity.
I just find it hard to believe that if there's two Typhoons on QRA, in the absence of anything else, the crews set their watches by an antiquated, inherently poorly granular audio system (i.e. TIM), and the aircraft themselves are on separate clocks. Perhaps this isn't the case, and it's an OPSEC issue. I do hope so.
Then there's the problem of machine timekeeping. If one system lags or leads another, then messages arrive out of sequence, or before "now". If their internal clocks run at different rates, then even though they may be set at the same initial start point, one may race compared with another. This is the purpose of "leap seconds", although in telecom systems, it is much finer granularity.
I just find it hard to believe that if there's two Typhoons on QRA, in the absence of anything else, the crews set their watches by an antiquated, inherently poorly granular audio system (i.e. TIM), and the aircraft themselves are on separate clocks. Perhaps this isn't the case, and it's an OPSEC issue. I do hope so.
In an ideal world . . .
Then the ultimate question, have you ever tried to set up a STANAG? Have you read all the exceptions and opt outs at the front of an ATP?
Finally, to state everyone has xyz is an error. Some aircraft or systems somewhere can be guaranteed to be on a different time standard with different equipment.
Avoid imitations
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Those still referring to the Rugby time signal need to move their clocks on about six and a half years!
It's been transmitted from Cumbria since 2007
It's been transmitted from Cumbria since 2007
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Originally Posted by Roadster280
GPS would seem to be the right system for the Navy.
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Easy to Solve.
At Linton in 2009 I bought each SQN (3 at the time ) and Ops and ATC a cheap wall clock that would sync with the Rugby time signal. They cost £10 each from Argos. Saved the Stn £400 in the first year. suggested this RAF wide but left for NZ soon after. The saving is small fry really but saves headlines like this. Surprised that such a simple cheap solution was not taken up. Some units world wide would need something different though.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Had a magic RC wall clock in my last office. Sometimes it would motor backwards (bad) other times it would advance quite happily (good) and I would take the hint and go home early.
PS
Just compared my RC watch with my computer and they are the same. However last time I looked at the Dii clock you were lucky if it was the same day and it was not GMT either.
PS
Just compared my RC watch with my computer and they are the same. However last time I looked at the Dii clock you were lucky if it was the same day and it was not GMT either.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 24th Aug 2013 at 10:08.
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Tom,
I just find it hard to believe that if there's two Typhoons on QRA, in the absence of anything else, the crews set their watches by an antiquated, inherently poorly granular audio system (i.e. TIM), and the aircraft themselves are on separate clocks. Perhaps this isn't the case, and it's an OPSEC issue. I do hope so.
I just find it hard to believe that if there's two Typhoons on QRA, in the absence of anything else, the crews set their watches by an antiquated, inherently poorly granular audio system (i.e. TIM), and the aircraft themselves are on separate clocks. Perhaps this isn't the case, and it's an OPSEC issue. I do hope so.
I recall that ACM Sandy "Curtains" Wilson solved the problem in RAFG HQ Rheindahlen the day after he arrived.
It was said that a red memo was issued demanding that all public clocks IN THE RAF half should be synchronised, this after he arrived at one end of Leystrasse 5 minutes before he left the other end.
Knowing JHQ the task was probably a full time one for a dependant, free of UK tax.
It was said that a red memo was issued demanding that all public clocks IN THE RAF half should be synchronised, this after he arrived at one end of Leystrasse 5 minutes before he left the other end.
Knowing JHQ the task was probably a full time one for a dependant, free of UK tax.
Actually, never understood the need to know the time. Air Defence: run to the jet when told to. Blast off into the wild blue yonder when told to. Shoot down imaginary enemy when told to. Go to tanker when told to. Go home and land when told to. Sleep when told to. Go to bar when none of the above apply. Who even needs a watch? So easy.
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[Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is still no officially-issued aircrew watch, following the debacle with Pulsar crowns being pulled all the way out. Obviously in the world of officialdom it's better for aircrew to make do with their own personal items; at least when they fall apart it'll be the aircrew's fault for wearing non-approved equipment into the cockpit 
]
]Casio Wave Ceptor radio controlled watch 4238 WVA-105HDE-2AVER only 86.913 £