WWI - Losers ask Winners not to Celebrate
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Strange that one of my fellow Americans is seemingly aghast at the idea of 'celebrating' victory. Every year, on the forth day of July, I and many of my kin hoot, holler and generally howl ourselves hoarse in remembrance of a great victory, a victory that came at a huge price to both sides with regards to lives lost.
Is the UK commemorating a past victory against a militaristic state who had nefarious intent in their (the UK's) own back yard somehow different?
Is the UK commemorating a past victory against a militaristic state who had nefarious intent in their (the UK's) own back yard somehow different?
Last edited by The Helpful Stacker; 18th Aug 2013 at 19:04.
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Slightly OT but does anyone know how I might go about finding out about the circumstance of someone's death in WW1 in the RFC? A relative (my grandfather's cousin) was killed, and I've visited his grave but know nothing more - e.g. what he flew, how he died, &c.
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Err, they do fantom. Had the pleasure of the company of 30 of our senior students on a battlefield tour this year. You would be surprised just how informed they actually are.
We celebrate winning our Freedom from an oppressive government....but we also commemorate those who paid for that freedom in the course of the War.
There is a huge difference between our Fourth of July celebration and our Veterans Day on which we remember those who have served in our military over the years.
Perhaps you miss the subtlety of what some of us are saying here. More than a few of us are Combat Veterans and know too well what War is all about and thus see War in a much different light than those who have no experience of War.
A friend of mine recently said...."I thought Vietnam was the worst experience of my life....until I sent my Son off to Iraq!".
There is a huge difference between our Fourth of July celebration and our Veterans Day on which we remember those who have served in our military over the years.
Perhaps you miss the subtlety of what some of us are saying here. More than a few of us are Combat Veterans and know too well what War is all about and thus see War in a much different light than those who have no experience of War.
A friend of mine recently said...."I thought Vietnam was the worst experience of my life....until I sent my Son off to Iraq!".
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AB,
If you think that....about clear cut winners.....how do you explain what happened in the UK post WWII.....Rationing, Political unrest, unemployment, nationalization of industry, housing shortages, etc......and then compare that to Germany's successful rebuilding and return to be a major economic power?
Twas not a good or easy time for you Brits after the War.
If you think that....about clear cut winners.....how do you explain what happened in the UK post WWII.....Rationing, Political unrest, unemployment, nationalization of industry, housing shortages, etc......and then compare that to Germany's successful rebuilding and return to be a major economic power?
Twas not a good or easy time for you Brits after the War.
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Just read, and viewed this thread, including post 5.
Bugger. That confounded bit of grit just hit my eye again. Well done Blackadder.
And yes, SASless ArthurR and others are correct. Been there, done that. War is a damned silly way to settle a dispute.
With the original, and subsequent, posts in mind and the concept of what is being proposed; no celebrations thank you. Commemoration. For all.
Sadly, perhaps, a commitment to never ever allow this to happen again is beyond the capability or understanding of politicians who commit their people to the futility of war.
Bugger. That confounded bit of grit just hit my eye again. Well done Blackadder.
And yes, SASless ArthurR and others are correct. Been there, done that. War is a damned silly way to settle a dispute.
With the original, and subsequent, posts in mind and the concept of what is being proposed; no celebrations thank you. Commemoration. For all.
Sadly, perhaps, a commitment to never ever allow this to happen again is beyond the capability or understanding of politicians who commit their people to the futility of war.
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fantom
I wish older school-children were taken to Ypres and attend the evening ceremony at the Gate as part of their education in Matters of Importance.
Then, they would never forget.
Nutloose
And then on to Auschwitz.
My G/daughter aged 13 is not long back from YPRES as part of a school trip, and visited a CWGC site near Etaples with her parents last week
Also know a not insignificant number of kids from Teesside and points North have visited Auschwitz this year
So perhaps there is some Hope!!!
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
I wish older school-children were taken to Ypres and attend the evening ceremony at the Gate as part of their education in Matters of Importance.
Then, they would never forget.
Nutloose
And then on to Auschwitz.
My G/daughter aged 13 is not long back from YPRES as part of a school trip, and visited a CWGC site near Etaples with her parents last week
Also know a not insignificant number of kids from Teesside and points North have visited Auschwitz this year
So perhaps there is some Hope!!!
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
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Strange that one of my fellow Americans is seemingly aghast at the idea of 'celebrating' victory. Every year, on the forth day of July, I and many of my kin hoot, holler and generally howl ourselves hoarse in remembrance of a great victory, a victory that came at a huge price to both sides with regards to lives lost.
Yup, some people celebrate the oddest of things, we celebrate burning a guy to death every year for trying to blow up Parliament, these days it's a pity we do not have a day of mourning for him...
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 19th Aug 2013 at 14:54.
So they are not going to find a current sqn with a good record of WW1 'kills' and paint up the tail with a depiction of a enemy plane going down in flames? Damn....... or should I say Dam?
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I believe that via either the UN or the EU, France will also be asking you to not honor things like Trafalger - perhaps think of renaming the Square and taking down the statute?
And deleting Henry V from your literature?
As well as the backwards 'V' gesture.
Mustn't upset the neighbors you see...
And deleting Henry V from your literature?
As well as the backwards 'V' gesture.
Mustn't upset the neighbors you see...
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I will always remember that closing scene of the last Blackadder as an inspirational way to end one of this Countries finest comedies whilst bring home the futility of it all and honouring those that that died. Simply perfection.
Just for non first-language English speakers; some meanings:
celebrate
1 to perform (a ritual, ceremony, etc.) publicly and formally: solemnize
2 to commemorate (an anniversary, holiday, etc.) with ceremony or festivity
3 to honour or praise publicly
So not necessarily jubilant rejoicing.
IMHO WW1 was one of the worst disasters to hit Western Europe and one from which we are all still suffering.
celebrate
1 to perform (a ritual, ceremony, etc.) publicly and formally: solemnize
2 to commemorate (an anniversary, holiday, etc.) with ceremony or festivity
3 to honour or praise publicly
So not necessarily jubilant rejoicing.
IMHO WW1 was one of the worst disasters to hit Western Europe and one from which we are all still suffering.
IMHO that last 30 seconds of Blackadder is the best 30 seconds ever produced.
Several countries lost a large part of a generation of young men - France almost an entire generation - so not surprising that Europe still suffers the effects of WW1
Several countries lost a large part of a generation of young men - France almost an entire generation - so not surprising that Europe still suffers the effects of WW1
Green Fields Of France
Eric Bogle
Well, how do you do, Private William McBride,
Do you mind if I sit down here by your graveside?
And rest for awhile in the warm summer sun,
I've been walking all day, and I'm nearly done.
And I see by your gravestone you were only 19
When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916,
Well, I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean
Or, Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene?
Did they Beat the drum slowly, did the play the pipes lowly?
Did the rifles fir o'er you as they lowered you down?
Did the bugles sound The Last Post in chorus?
Did the pipes play the Flowers of the Forest?
And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some loyal heart is your memory enshrined?
And, though you died back in 1916,
To that loyal heart are you forever 19?
Or are you a stranger without even a name,
Forever enshrined behind some glass pane,
In an old photograph, torn and tattered and stained,
And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame?
The sun's shining down on these green fields of France;
The warm wind blows gently, and the red poppies dance.
The trenches have vanished long under the plow;
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard that's still No Man's Land
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man's blind indifference to his fellow man.
And a whole generation who were butchered and damned.
And I can't help but wonder, no Willie McBride,
Do all those who lie here know why they died?
Did you really believe them when they told you "The Cause?"
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again.
The last verse pretty well sums it all up.
Eric Bogle
Well, how do you do, Private William McBride,
Do you mind if I sit down here by your graveside?
And rest for awhile in the warm summer sun,
I've been walking all day, and I'm nearly done.
And I see by your gravestone you were only 19
When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916,
Well, I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean
Or, Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene?
Did they Beat the drum slowly, did the play the pipes lowly?
Did the rifles fir o'er you as they lowered you down?
Did the bugles sound The Last Post in chorus?
Did the pipes play the Flowers of the Forest?
And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some loyal heart is your memory enshrined?
And, though you died back in 1916,
To that loyal heart are you forever 19?
Or are you a stranger without even a name,
Forever enshrined behind some glass pane,
In an old photograph, torn and tattered and stained,
And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame?
The sun's shining down on these green fields of France;
The warm wind blows gently, and the red poppies dance.
The trenches have vanished long under the plow;
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard that's still No Man's Land
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man's blind indifference to his fellow man.
And a whole generation who were butchered and damned.
And I can't help but wonder, no Willie McBride,
Do all those who lie here know why they died?
Did you really believe them when they told you "The Cause?"
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again.
The last verse pretty well sums it all up.
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We'll be asked to only commemorate the Ashes next so we don't upset the poor Aussies who are losing everything at the moment.
(Is it true that they are now so used to finishing second that they are changing their national sporting colours to "The Green and Silver"? Just Commemorating)!
(Is it true that they are now so used to finishing second that they are changing their national sporting colours to "The Green and Silver"? Just Commemorating)!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Why are we commemorating the beginning if WW1? We didn't commemorate the beginning of WW2.
We commemorate the end of the wars and the ends of WW2 battles such as BoB although we do both celebrate and commemorate the D-Day Landings.
Would I be a cynic if I thought it is hype by media and entertainment industries backed by politicians hoping for an Olympic feel-good factor to take them in to the next election?
We commemorate the end of the wars and the ends of WW2 battles such as BoB although we do both celebrate and commemorate the D-Day Landings.
Would I be a cynic if I thought it is hype by media and entertainment industries backed by politicians hoping for an Olympic feel-good factor to take them in to the next election?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Biggus, thank you. Of course the weather then was better for a cocktail party and a true celebration of a turning point. While D-Day was a start it was, like the BoB, a turning point. The start of a war is the complete antithesis of what should be celebrated and even commemorated. The end, OTOH cannot have a Centennial commemoration until the mid-term of the next Parliament.