Piston Provost
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Slightly off thread ... But is anyone able to offer a comparison on handling between the Piston Provost and the BP Balliol ? What were they like to spin ?
Best ...
Coff.
Best ...
Coff.
Beags,
Remember his departure from the Summer camp at St Mawgan in 90 or 91? The Boss' and CFI's faces were pictures....
Ah the PP - a lovely looking and sounding aeroplane - on the 'to do' list for certain.
Remember his departure from the Summer camp at St Mawgan in 90 or 91? The Boss' and CFI's faces were pictures....
Ah the PP - a lovely looking and sounding aeroplane - on the 'to do' list for certain.
Slight thread creep but..... PP WV499 used to be at North Weald (had the 39 Sqn badge painted on the fin by one of my colleagues) on static display, then to Sandtoft. Last heard off in the West Country. Anyone any idea whether it is still around or even heading back towards flight?
Regards,
BL
Regards,
BL
Sorry Coff, seems some confusion between a 70 years old (me) and an 80+ year old - he had not flown Balliols, but knew guys that had, and had flown a Tempest V five times.
Quote from his e-mail - "Those who did fly them (Balliols) all confirmed that they were a lot of fun. I did fly the Tempest Mk V about five times at Sylt in Germany"
Pity that, had all the promise of an interesting continuation of the thread
Best. W.
Quote from his e-mail - "Those who did fly them (Balliols) all confirmed that they were a lot of fun. I did fly the Tempest Mk V about five times at Sylt in Germany"
Pity that, had all the promise of an interesting continuation of the thread
Best. W.
Haraka Senior was Chief Defects Engineer at Hunting P. in the 50's and had responsibility for the Provost ( not "Piston" please- have some respect).
One feature not widely advertised in the early days was the high number of students chopped for "Air sickness" on the type.
Investigation revealed that fuel fumes were creeping back along the top fuselage skin and under the canopy from the fuel vent. This was not noticed at the time by the hours hardened instructors who rarely suffered. .
The solution IIRC ( it was many years ago) was to reposition this to the top of the fin .
One feature not widely advertised in the early days was the high number of students chopped for "Air sickness" on the type.
Investigation revealed that fuel fumes were creeping back along the top fuselage skin and under the canopy from the fuel vent. This was not noticed at the time by the hours hardened instructors who rarely suffered. .
The solution IIRC ( it was many years ago) was to reposition this to the top of the fin .
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Provost Fuel Venting
My course did its night flying at Spitalgate because Barkston Heath's runway was being resurfaced in the summer of 1960.
That meant a goose-neck flare path. Although it seems strange now, I think we operated beside a single line of the flares rather than onto a conventional flarepath.
We were all aware of the fuel vent at the very rear of the fuselage. Since the grown-ups did not seem to think this was a fire risk, we students talked a lot of igniting the fuel deliberately.
I made a couple of timid attempts, but bottled out - not for fear of bursting into flames but for fear of the trouble I might get into for trampling the flarepath.
That meant a goose-neck flare path. Although it seems strange now, I think we operated beside a single line of the flares rather than onto a conventional flarepath.
We were all aware of the fuel vent at the very rear of the fuselage. Since the grown-ups did not seem to think this was a fire risk, we students talked a lot of igniting the fuel deliberately.
I made a couple of timid attempts, but bottled out - not for fear of bursting into flames but for fear of the trouble I might get into for trampling the flarepath.
risbutler
Also did PP' Nights' off the Spitalgate Goosenecks but 5 years earlier. The good citizens of Grantham turned off their street lights at midnight causing some confusion. ISTR we had a proper traditional two line flarepath' with AAIs'. We missed the Balliol by one Term', which given its accident record at Shiny Palace was probably a good thing. See the good Colin Cummings "Category Five" book. It was a bit of a jump' to go from the Chippie to the Balliol with its propensity to torque stall, and I was told with its Merlin and four bladed Prop. it went downhill faster than the Grantham express train to Kings Cross.
A.D.
Also did PP' Nights' off the Spitalgate Goosenecks but 5 years earlier. The good citizens of Grantham turned off their street lights at midnight causing some confusion. ISTR we had a proper traditional two line flarepath' with AAIs'. We missed the Balliol by one Term', which given its accident record at Shiny Palace was probably a good thing. See the good Colin Cummings "Category Five" book. It was a bit of a jump' to go from the Chippie to the Balliol with its propensity to torque stall, and I was told with its Merlin and four bladed Prop. it went downhill faster than the Grantham express train to Kings Cross.
A.D.
From a techie point of view,
When I did my apprentice training at Halton, the Piston Provost was the "basic airframe". I remember it for being the only aircraft I ever worked on where you could cross connect the elevator controls easily. Just to explain, most aircraft had flying control runs where adjacent cable couplings were "gendered" to prevent such a mistake. I remember well, connecting, rigging and doing range of movement checks on a PP early in my training. Including a pat on the back from Chiefy, "instructor". It only came to light because we worked out, after the event, that a pull back on the control column means the elevator moves up not down.
Smudge
When I did my apprentice training at Halton, the Piston Provost was the "basic airframe". I remember it for being the only aircraft I ever worked on where you could cross connect the elevator controls easily. Just to explain, most aircraft had flying control runs where adjacent cable couplings were "gendered" to prevent such a mistake. I remember well, connecting, rigging and doing range of movement checks on a PP early in my training. Including a pat on the back from Chiefy, "instructor". It only came to light because we worked out, after the event, that a pull back on the control column means the elevator moves up not down.
Smudge
Further to my 32' above (sorry for drift), my well qualified informant states that the College "lost" 18 Balliols in 20 months or, 5 College Terms. This would be in the early to mid 1950s', No. 64 Entry bearing the brunt.
In the mid seventies the Apprentices School attached to 23 MU at Aldergrove was folding. They had a collection of aircraft consisting of a Devon, two Vampire T11s and a Provost T1 that were runners. The Vampires and Provost were used for taxiing practice so were fully mobile.
I had had a kick around their blister hangar before as the Provost was an ex Tern Hill example that I had previously flown.
The aircraft had been sold. The Vampires to an American concern that refurbished T11s into two seat jet tourers, John Travolta had one, and the Provost to some outfit in the south of England. I was asked if I would like to do the final engine runs on it before it was dismantled and packed off.
It was fully serviceable apart from the hood seal and the clock. The hangar was being cleaned out so all the aircraft were crowded together outside and the Provost was pointing directly at the Devon some five yards away. Chiefy was beside me with the ground running notes which differed slightly from the SOPs I used when I was a kid.
I demonstrated the left over to the right hand throttle technique to keep the control stick back, ran the primer for six seconds and it started first bang!!!!!. We then went through the entire gambit with mag drops, CSU checks and the final exhilarating full power 3000 rpm +8 boost with the long blue flame coning out of the exhaust.
Come the final shutdown and as I wished it a fortunate future something was nagging me about the run. I thought of it that evening. When we did full power runs at Tern Hill we had chained chocks and a couple of airman draped over the tailplane. A flick of the rudder would dismiss them when you had finished. We had had nothing but a pair of folding chocks. If the aircraft had jumped those the propeller would have chopped its way though the Devon's fuselage before I could have reacted.
It didn't so it was a nice afternoon.
The American who had bought the Vampires was disgusted with the CAA because they wouldn't let him fly his Vampires to the States.
I had had a kick around their blister hangar before as the Provost was an ex Tern Hill example that I had previously flown.
The aircraft had been sold. The Vampires to an American concern that refurbished T11s into two seat jet tourers, John Travolta had one, and the Provost to some outfit in the south of England. I was asked if I would like to do the final engine runs on it before it was dismantled and packed off.
It was fully serviceable apart from the hood seal and the clock. The hangar was being cleaned out so all the aircraft were crowded together outside and the Provost was pointing directly at the Devon some five yards away. Chiefy was beside me with the ground running notes which differed slightly from the SOPs I used when I was a kid.
I demonstrated the left over to the right hand throttle technique to keep the control stick back, ran the primer for six seconds and it started first bang!!!!!. We then went through the entire gambit with mag drops, CSU checks and the final exhilarating full power 3000 rpm +8 boost with the long blue flame coning out of the exhaust.
Come the final shutdown and as I wished it a fortunate future something was nagging me about the run. I thought of it that evening. When we did full power runs at Tern Hill we had chained chocks and a couple of airman draped over the tailplane. A flick of the rudder would dismiss them when you had finished. We had had nothing but a pair of folding chocks. If the aircraft had jumped those the propeller would have chopped its way though the Devon's fuselage before I could have reacted.
It didn't so it was a nice afternoon.
The American who had bought the Vampires was disgusted with the CAA because they wouldn't let him fly his Vampires to the States.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 27th Aug 2013 at 16:40.
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Piston Provost
This thread brings back happy memories of flying the PP from Barkston Heath in '58. Thanks to the Sandys axe our instructors were mainly ex 2 TAF Venom pilots. Far from being depressed by their new role they were most enthusiastic and made our flying most interesting. Examples were LL battle formation below 250'msd and aerobatic 'avalanches'. Eventually the powers that be pointed out that flick manoeuvres were prohibited.
Our relief landing ground was the large grass airfield at Spitalgate. Often up to six solo students would be in the circuit. This led to a bemused local controller telephoning OC flying and suggesting that four students carrying out line abreast roller landings was not a good idea. Occasionally we would also rendezvous away from prying eyes and attempt to dog fight. Enough said.
The down side was IF. We wore blue goggles behind amber screens and flew in Stygian gloom. The vagaries of the air driven AH allied to yaw with power changes resulted in sheer torture. Fortunately my QFI 'Clem' Clements would book us out for GH and then sit patiently through my ham fisted attempts at IF. I owe him my continued flying career.
With 550 HP the PP had a similar performance to the Harvard but was easier to fly. When we started training, the Alvis Leonides radial's tendency to blow pots limited boost to zero. When cleared to plus 8, acceleration during a short field take off was most impressive and would leave a JP3 standing. On reflection this was not difficult!
There were a few 'gotchas' Over enthusiastic application of the brakes when stopping could pitch the aircraft onto its nose with a bent propeller and shock loaded engine. Failure to monitor oil temperature controlled by a manual shutter could incur the righteous wrath of our line 'chiefy'. The aircraft also did not have a constant speed prop. Fine pitch was used for take off and coarse pitch set for cruise. Tragically we lost a course member who overshot from a low off field practice force landing with coarse pitch still set and torque rolled into the ground.
Supervision then was a little lax. A good example was the QFI Who demonstrated tactical low flying to his student by flying down the main LMS railway line from Grantham to London. Very low in a cutting he failed to spot the wires ahead and above him and took them away with the fin. Unfortunately the wires controlled the railway's signalling system so traffic came to a halt for some hours. After his court martial the luckless QFI was sent to Cyprus where he flew Chipmunks on anti EOKA patrols.
The bus journeys from the 'buildings' to and from Barkston were a good indication of morale. On the way there the atmosphere was very light hearted. On our return we were more thoughtful as we contemplated the joys of drill and academics.
Our relief landing ground was the large grass airfield at Spitalgate. Often up to six solo students would be in the circuit. This led to a bemused local controller telephoning OC flying and suggesting that four students carrying out line abreast roller landings was not a good idea. Occasionally we would also rendezvous away from prying eyes and attempt to dog fight. Enough said.
The down side was IF. We wore blue goggles behind amber screens and flew in Stygian gloom. The vagaries of the air driven AH allied to yaw with power changes resulted in sheer torture. Fortunately my QFI 'Clem' Clements would book us out for GH and then sit patiently through my ham fisted attempts at IF. I owe him my continued flying career.
With 550 HP the PP had a similar performance to the Harvard but was easier to fly. When we started training, the Alvis Leonides radial's tendency to blow pots limited boost to zero. When cleared to plus 8, acceleration during a short field take off was most impressive and would leave a JP3 standing. On reflection this was not difficult!
There were a few 'gotchas' Over enthusiastic application of the brakes when stopping could pitch the aircraft onto its nose with a bent propeller and shock loaded engine. Failure to monitor oil temperature controlled by a manual shutter could incur the righteous wrath of our line 'chiefy'. The aircraft also did not have a constant speed prop. Fine pitch was used for take off and coarse pitch set for cruise. Tragically we lost a course member who overshot from a low off field practice force landing with coarse pitch still set and torque rolled into the ground.
Supervision then was a little lax. A good example was the QFI Who demonstrated tactical low flying to his student by flying down the main LMS railway line from Grantham to London. Very low in a cutting he failed to spot the wires ahead and above him and took them away with the fin. Unfortunately the wires controlled the railway's signalling system so traffic came to a halt for some hours. After his court martial the luckless QFI was sent to Cyprus where he flew Chipmunks on anti EOKA patrols.
The bus journeys from the 'buildings' to and from Barkston were a good indication of morale. On the way there the atmosphere was very light hearted. On our return we were more thoughtful as we contemplated the joys of drill and academics.
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This thread opened with a call for the instructor's handbook.
I hope RBA/BY already has the pilot's notes, because I well remember it was very severe about the risk of the inverted spin. There had to be a bogey to think about and that was it. It goes without saying a duel aircraft got into one in our last Provost term - they came up on the R/T (I think while still in the throes) yet came back chastened but alive.
Actually we ought to have been more worried by losing one of our number (solo, very soon after we were all going solo) when his prop flew off. This never became a teaching topic, so students like me scarcely gave it another thought. Sadly I can nearly remember his name, but it escapes me at the moment.
Our instructors were a generation later than aw ditor's, from the Hunters of Jever and Sylt. My first two terms were with a very boyish pilot - I was very surprised to learn only ten years later that he was old enough to retire as a Sqn Ldr. He was great fun, but I was lucky to be put with another instructor before the serious flying tests started. He enlarged his fun reputation very slightly in the early days of the Jet Provost, when my year was at Cranwell proper. There is a brief period during the JP take-off when the undercarriage doors are positioned vertically downwards. He used this period to foreshorten them considerably; noone else seems to have thought of doing that. Sadly, he bought it a prang in Canada, I think in the 1970s. Come to think of such things, my fellow student under this instructor later killed himself carelessly demonstrating a JP in up-country Malaysia.
If the fun was due to run out, we did not know at the time. Nor did our flight commanders. When all the Final Handling Tests had been done, a lucky selection of the course was briefed to fly entirely solo in a last launch of the available fleet. I was not one of them, possibly because I did not have the imagination properly to use such a dizzy gift. I can though imagine the instructors in their crewroom, and their sardonic sweepstake on how many aircraft would come back !
I hope RBA/BY already has the pilot's notes, because I well remember it was very severe about the risk of the inverted spin. There had to be a bogey to think about and that was it. It goes without saying a duel aircraft got into one in our last Provost term - they came up on the R/T (I think while still in the throes) yet came back chastened but alive.
Actually we ought to have been more worried by losing one of our number (solo, very soon after we were all going solo) when his prop flew off. This never became a teaching topic, so students like me scarcely gave it another thought. Sadly I can nearly remember his name, but it escapes me at the moment.
Our instructors were a generation later than aw ditor's, from the Hunters of Jever and Sylt. My first two terms were with a very boyish pilot - I was very surprised to learn only ten years later that he was old enough to retire as a Sqn Ldr. He was great fun, but I was lucky to be put with another instructor before the serious flying tests started. He enlarged his fun reputation very slightly in the early days of the Jet Provost, when my year was at Cranwell proper. There is a brief period during the JP take-off when the undercarriage doors are positioned vertically downwards. He used this period to foreshorten them considerably; noone else seems to have thought of doing that. Sadly, he bought it a prang in Canada, I think in the 1970s. Come to think of such things, my fellow student under this instructor later killed himself carelessly demonstrating a JP in up-country Malaysia.
If the fun was due to run out, we did not know at the time. Nor did our flight commanders. When all the Final Handling Tests had been done, a lucky selection of the course was briefed to fly entirely solo in a last launch of the available fleet. I was not one of them, possibly because I did not have the imagination properly to use such a dizzy gift. I can though imagine the instructors in their crewroom, and their sardonic sweepstake on how many aircraft would come back !
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KH
My Provost Course was at Feltwell in 1954/55, when the aircraft we had were brand new. As I remember it the propeller was fitted with a CSU, but I had to dig out my Pilot’s Notes to ensure my elderly memory wasn’t giving trouble; on Page 7 I found:
INTRODUCTION
The Provost T 1 is an all-metal, low-wing monoplane
powered by a 550 b.h.p. Leonides 126 engine driving a
three-bladed, constant speed propeller. It has a fixed
undercarriage.
Checks during a PFL included selecting the propeller to fully coarse for the glide in an actual emergency, but fully fine for the PFL and overshoot; presumably your unfortunate colleague overlooked the second bit?
The aircraft also did not have a constant speed prop. Fine pitch was used for take off and coarse pitch set for cruise.
My Provost Course was at Feltwell in 1954/55, when the aircraft we had were brand new. As I remember it the propeller was fitted with a CSU, but I had to dig out my Pilot’s Notes to ensure my elderly memory wasn’t giving trouble; on Page 7 I found:
INTRODUCTION
The Provost T 1 is an all-metal, low-wing monoplane
powered by a 550 b.h.p. Leonides 126 engine driving a
three-bladed, constant speed propeller. It has a fixed
undercarriage.
Checks during a PFL included selecting the propeller to fully coarse for the glide in an actual emergency, but fully fine for the PFL and overshoot; presumably your unfortunate colleague overlooked the second bit?
Last edited by NutherA2; 29th Sep 2013 at 11:21. Reason: Slight typos
I will concur with Nuther A2 that it had a constant speed prop.
That must have been Hell!!
When the Valiants were grounded in 1964 we squadron co-pilots were issued with a Chipmunk so that we could maintain flying practice. Our one had previously seen service in Cyprus on the aforementioned anti-EOKA patrols. To this end it had a full green/grey camouflage finish with a light grey underside.
We now had our own baby Spitfire.
After his court martial the luckless QFI was sent to Cyprus where he flew Chipmunks on anti EOKA patrols
When the Valiants were grounded in 1964 we squadron co-pilots were issued with a Chipmunk so that we could maintain flying practice. Our one had previously seen service in Cyprus on the aforementioned anti-EOKA patrols. To this end it had a full green/grey camouflage finish with a light grey underside.
We now had our own baby Spitfire.