Gibraltar.
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Gibraltar.
Hello People,
Just wondering if any Mil' types had witnessed the same level of Spanish provocation when any of you were stationed there or transited The Rock?
Are the Spaniards ratcheting up the pressure or is just that it's reported more nowadays?
Just curious.
Just wondering if any Mil' types had witnessed the same level of Spanish provocation when any of you were stationed there or transited The Rock?
Are the Spaniards ratcheting up the pressure or is just that it's reported more nowadays?
Just curious.
In 1983, they put SAMs on the surrounding hills - pretty nasty!
We had the delights of a 100 degree turn at about 2/3 mile finals to avoid the border (any excuse) for quite a while.
In 1989, after a Navy exercise was cancelled early, 4 F3s and 4 Buccs returned to Gib & did lots of circuits. We flew an extended pattern to fit all 8 of us in.After 25 minutes of non-stop rollers, we filled up the border crossing lanes and created an international traffic jam - Tick!
The Fraggles told us they loved it, mostly because the Spanish hated it!
We had the delights of a 100 degree turn at about 2/3 mile finals to avoid the border (any excuse) for quite a while.
In 1989, after a Navy exercise was cancelled early, 4 F3s and 4 Buccs returned to Gib & did lots of circuits. We flew an extended pattern to fit all 8 of us in.After 25 minutes of non-stop rollers, we filled up the border crossing lanes and created an international traffic jam - Tick!
The Fraggles told us they loved it, mostly because the Spanish hated it!
I suspect that this whole "drama queen" display by Spain is part of an Endlessly Undemocratic (EU) plan to force the British people to accept that Gib must be given back to Spain. I also suspect that our "great leaders", of all parties, will duck, weave and generally create verbal flatulence that allows them to blame someone else. Blimey, isn't it about time we blamed the Australians for something?
Smudge
Smudge
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Why us ???
If the UK ever gave up Gibraltar I would hang my head in shame.
They should stick it up the EU and tell them where to get off.
If the UK ever gave up Gibraltar I would hang my head in shame.
They should stick it up the EU and tell them where to get off.
500N,
No offence mate, I'm making a sarcastic reference to the spineless bastards that purport to be the "British Government". The reference to Oz could just as easily have been Canada. Oh bugger what have I said now
Smudge
Long live the colonies
No offence mate, I'm making a sarcastic reference to the spineless bastards that purport to be the "British Government". The reference to Oz could just as easily have been Canada. Oh bugger what have I said now
Smudge
Long live the colonies
Last edited by smujsmith; 5th Jul 2013 at 09:32.
Civil airliners no longer have to fly the turning final approach, but military aircraft still do. Absolutely brilliant place to go on detachment!
If you look at an aeronautical chart of Gib, you'll see that the pesky Spaniards have put wedges of controlled airspace over it and all around it, presumably in an effort to make it as difficult as possible to get in and out (which they can do because it's within the Seville TMA, even though it's not Spanish sovereign territory). Fortunately, away from the politics, there seems to be a gentlemens' agreement in place between Seville ATC and Gib that the controlled airspace will not be treated as such.
I really think we should make more of a fuss about Ceuta every time the Spanish kick off about Gib. It's just rank hypocrisy for the Spanish to want Gib back on the basis of geography and anti-colonialism when they maintain their very own enclave in North Africa!
If you look at an aeronautical chart of Gib, you'll see that the pesky Spaniards have put wedges of controlled airspace over it and all around it, presumably in an effort to make it as difficult as possible to get in and out (which they can do because it's within the Seville TMA, even though it's not Spanish sovereign territory). Fortunately, away from the politics, there seems to be a gentlemens' agreement in place between Seville ATC and Gib that the controlled airspace will not be treated as such.
I really think we should make more of a fuss about Ceuta every time the Spanish kick off about Gib. It's just rank hypocrisy for the Spanish to want Gib back on the basis of geography and anti-colonialism when they maintain their very own enclave in North Africa!
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Daddy,
We spend a week or so in Gib every year at the Elliot Hotel. In a previous life, my employer accommodated me in the Mess at North Front. Then, as now, it's a magic place, despite a recent and crap TV documentary depicting it as a mini-Ibiza. The Spanish thing can be a nuisance occasionally, but it's not overbearing. I'll reveal more in the Bridge if you wish! You must be with Monarch now?
We spend a week or so in Gib every year at the Elliot Hotel. In a previous life, my employer accommodated me in the Mess at North Front. Then, as now, it's a magic place, despite a recent and crap TV documentary depicting it as a mini-Ibiza. The Spanish thing can be a nuisance occasionally, but it's not overbearing. I'll reveal more in the Bridge if you wish! You must be with Monarch now?
Last edited by cuefaye; 4th Jul 2013 at 21:32.
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I paid an official visit to the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre in Madrid some years ago and was mildly amused to discover that their maps & charts didn't actually include Gib. If they don't know where it is, how can they want it back??
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We were there "low key" with the Jags when the border was reopened, I believe the Flypast went down rather badly.
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Ceuta and Melilla. The Spanish equivalents of Gibraltar but in North Africa. They have far less excuse for keeping them than we have for keeping Gibraltar. And they are massive routes for illegal immigration.
The Spanish government will rattle the sabre over Gibraltar to distract the population from their own economic ineptitude.
The Spanish government will rattle the sabre over Gibraltar to distract the population from their own economic ineptitude.
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Smudge
I forgot the
or 
on the end of my post, sorry
And I am very thick skinned anyway !
I forgot the
or on the end of my post, sorry And I am very thick skinned anyway !
Last edited by 500N; 5th Jul 2013 at 07:31.
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Jeez some of you have a pretty xenophobic view of history. The Spanish have every right to be a bit p1ssed off at the path of events that have lead to this outcrop of rock housing it's own little colonial britishness.
That's not say I think they have any legit claim to it - up with democracy I say and the local populace have twice overwhelmingly voted to stay British. But you can't exactly blame the Spanish for the odd border-closing tantrum, to make their point.
By and large, since Franco shuffled of his mortal coil they have been pretty relaxed about IMO.
History can be a little arbitrary in its outcomes - after all, Scotland could have easily ended up French. So I suppose we would all be OK with that, if the Scot's wanted to be frogs then??
PS
Seriously mate...I can assure you that virtually the entire Spanish population could not give a f****ing **** about Gib. The economy on the other hand occupies and exercises their minds big time. Ain't nothing their government is coming up with that will distract the Spanish from their train wreck economy. You really ought to learn a little about the place and its people before posting such utter drivel.
That's not say I think they have any legit claim to it - up with democracy I say and the local populace have twice overwhelmingly voted to stay British. But you can't exactly blame the Spanish for the odd border-closing tantrum, to make their point.
By and large, since Franco shuffled of his mortal coil they have been pretty relaxed about IMO.
History can be a little arbitrary in its outcomes - after all, Scotland could have easily ended up French. So I suppose we would all be OK with that, if the Scot's wanted to be frogs then??
PS
The Spanish government will rattle the sabre over Gibraltar to distract the population from their own economic ineptitude.
Last edited by The Old Fat One; 5th Jul 2013 at 01:41.
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after all, Scotland could have easily ended up French. So I suppose we would all be OK with that, if the Scot's wanted to be frogs then??
And who are the "we" in "we would all be OK with that"?
TOFO
I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's the economy that worries the Spanish. High unemployment, 25%, youth unemployment much higher. Think I saw a figure of about 47%. What I believe the vast majority worry about is the "crisis".
Also, the Basques and the Catalans don't give a monkeys as a lot of them want some form of independence so are not worried about what they regard as the rump of Spain.
One last point and I don't know the answer to this. During the Second World War were there lots of Gibraltarian volunteers who came to defend the UK? Say like from Oz, NZ, Canada etc.
If that happened now I wouldn't hold your breath from what I saw when I visited Gib.
BBK
I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's the economy that worries the Spanish. High unemployment, 25%, youth unemployment much higher. Think I saw a figure of about 47%. What I believe the vast majority worry about is the "crisis".
Also, the Basques and the Catalans don't give a monkeys as a lot of them want some form of independence so are not worried about what they regard as the rump of Spain.
One last point and I don't know the answer to this. During the Second World War were there lots of Gibraltarian volunteers who came to defend the UK? Say like from Oz, NZ, Canada etc.
If that happened now I wouldn't hold your breath from what I saw when I visited Gib.
BBK
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It is more than a few years since my last visit. However, there was always some needle from the neighbours. I always went there with the mighty hunter. It was always parked out of catapult and air rifle range from the border fence.
Unlike a Puma that was already there on one of my last visits. It was waiting for a complete set of transparencies for one side or the other. It looked like it had been pelted by every missle imaginable.
A landing at Gib whilst sitting on the jump seat was always a treat for us line swine.
Unlike a Puma that was already there on one of my last visits. It was waiting for a complete set of transparencies for one side or the other. It looked like it had been pelted by every missle imaginable.
A landing at Gib whilst sitting on the jump seat was always a treat for us line swine.
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I was living on Gibraltar in 1952 as a 11 year old schoolboy (Naval Dockyard Technical School). The Spanish were kicking off on the run up to the Queen's Commonwealth Tour & threatening all sorts of things.
HMS Vanguard came into Harbour & apparently, rotated it's 8 x 15 inch guns towards Algeciras which caused absolute bedlam, It must have done the trick as the visit passed off peacefully.
HMS Vanguard came into Harbour & apparently, rotated it's 8 x 15 inch guns towards Algeciras which caused absolute bedlam, It must have done the trick as the visit passed off peacefully.
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I was posted to Gib from '87 to '90. The border was open then but there could be traffic trouble getting from Spain. The peeps in La Linea loved the place as the tourists brought plenty of money with them when they stood at a very good vantage point to take pictures. they used to come by the bus load from further up the coast.
That was it really. They had had a referendum a few years previously and 44 out of the 30,000+ voted to become Spanish. There has never been a serious question about it since. Also I think that some ruling about self determination will come into force if Spain ever gets it's way but since there's the Treaty of Utrecht which is still in force I doubt that will ever happen.
Regards
H
That was it really. They had had a referendum a few years previously and 44 out of the 30,000+ voted to become Spanish. There has never been a serious question about it since. Also I think that some ruling about self determination will come into force if Spain ever gets it's way but since there's the Treaty of Utrecht which is still in force I doubt that will ever happen.
Regards
H
I used to love going to Gib. A dive into Monte Real to srock up on Port for Mess fines before filing for Point Alpha, Bravo or Charlie!
It was never the same when we lost the RAF Mess with its beach - the combined Navy Wardroom is nasty, smelly and too noisy when you have a monster hangover (it's also a hell of a trudge from La Linea).
LJ
It was never the same when we lost the RAF Mess with its beach - the combined Navy Wardroom is nasty, smelly and too noisy when you have a monster hangover (it's also a hell of a trudge from La Linea).
LJ