Discrimination
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Until the RAF gets itself bang up to date with modern employment legislation by hiring a few employment specific lawyers (good ones are like hens teeth) it will continue to get handed its arse on a plate over cases like this.
The HR world is full of many pitfalls and a few seemingly experienced officers will get eaten alive by the boys (and girls) who know their stuff. Moan about it sure, but it's now the law of the land (thanks Tony) and civvy street wised up to this kind of thing year's ago. Time the RAF did too.
The HR world is full of many pitfalls and a few seemingly experienced officers will get eaten alive by the boys (and girls) who know their stuff. Moan about it sure, but it's now the law of the land (thanks Tony) and civvy street wised up to this kind of thing year's ago. Time the RAF did too.
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Brigadier without a Brigade?
Lt Cols command regiments
Colonels command not very much any more
Brigadiers command brigades
Major Generals command divisions
Lt Generals command Corps
Generals command armies.
RAF ranks seem a rank behind.
Flt Lts command not very much.
Sqn Ldrs command flights.
Wg Cdrs command squadrons
Gp Capts command stations (ie wings)
Air Cdres command not very much
AVMs command Groups
After that, it gets a bit obscure.
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500N
Yes, that would be the logic to draw from this particular case. They devil as always is in the detail though, be specific but it must be non discriminatory. The key is being good at it without offending someone who may be inclined to apply, hence the need for expert assistance. With employment law the Armed Forces are operating in unfamiliar territory. And I'm sad to say that in many cases it is essentially an arse covering exercise.
Yes, that would be the logic to draw from this particular case. They devil as always is in the detail though, be specific but it must be non discriminatory. The key is being good at it without offending someone who may be inclined to apply, hence the need for expert assistance. With employment law the Armed Forces are operating in unfamiliar territory. And I'm sad to say that in many cases it is essentially an arse covering exercise.
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Outlaw
OK, thanks and agree.
I was thinking along the lines of because this is a medical position,
in this case it would be easier to write restrictive criteria - ie must
be a Doctor.
OK, thanks and agree.
I was thinking along the lines of because this is a medical position,
in this case it would be easier to write restrictive criteria - ie must
be a Doctor.
Red On, Green On
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Staying on the right side of employment law is actually quite easy. Follow the required processes to the letter, and have a paper trail that shows you have done so.
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Flt Lts command not very much.
Sqn Ldrs command flights.
Sqn Ldrs command flights.
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Reminds me of the old Officers' Command Course at Henlow. The discipline/legal lessons started with the offence of theft of a chicken and went through each stage of the process of charging the miscreant up to court martial. The events were acted out for us on stage by the Di-Staff followed by explanation and discussion. At the initial hearing, the station Medical Officer gave evidence as a junior officer - at each subsequent hearing he appeared promoted by one rank. The final joke was at the court martial where he out-ranked everybody in the court. (Much play made about who saluted who).
Unbelievable.
How does a civilian employment tribunal have the power to make judgements on a military internal process.
How many unsuccessful candidates at OASC will now see this as a green light to sue because although they have a First from Cambridge and perfect aptitude scores, they porked the interview and screwed the hangar tasks: "But I was qualified for the job and the process was too subjective!"
The rot started when we allowed women to compete on equal terms in the military. Life was simpler when the WAAFs knew their limits and acted accordingly!
How does a civilian employment tribunal have the power to make judgements on a military internal process.
How many unsuccessful candidates at OASC will now see this as a green light to sue because although they have a First from Cambridge and perfect aptitude scores, they porked the interview and screwed the hangar tasks: "But I was qualified for the job and the process was too subjective!"
The rot started when we allowed women to compete on equal terms in the military. Life was simpler when the WAAFs knew their limits and acted accordingly!
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What I find confusing is the apparent non-sequitur from finding the assessment subjective to concluding that there was discrimination based on the individuals' sex. I have no problem accepting that the process was subjective, having observed promotion boards (and received the debriefs on why I had narrowly missed out again) I can see the potential there, particularly when it boils down to 2 people and the inevitable reading between the lines but why does this subjectivity lead to an assumption that it is because she is a woman not that it is because she is a nurse etc etc?
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Originally Posted by Training Risky:7910444
Unbelievable.
How does a civilian employment tribunal have the power to make judgements on a military internal process.
How many unsuccessful candidates at OASC will now see this as a green light to sue because although they have a First from Cambridge and perfect aptitude scores, they porked the interview and screwed the hangar tasks: "But I was qualified for the job and the process was too subjective!"
The rot started when we allowed women to compete on equal terms in the military. Life was simpler when the WAAFs knew their limits and acted accordingly!
How does a civilian employment tribunal have the power to make judgements on a military internal process.
How many unsuccessful candidates at OASC will now see this as a green light to sue because although they have a First from Cambridge and perfect aptitude scores, they porked the interview and screwed the hangar tasks: "But I was qualified for the job and the process was too subjective!"
The rot started when we allowed women to compete on equal terms in the military. Life was simpler when the WAAFs knew their limits and acted accordingly!
With many things in life its more about how its done not necessarily why. You can still refuse to accept an applicant because you don't feel they would fit with your business. What you can't do is say I didn't hire him because I didn't like the look of him.
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The military was found wanting in this case.
In the same way that the other threads on Airworthiness state, there needs to be a transparent and auditable record / paper trail to demonstrate fairness in the process.
With the same gay abandon, the Star in charge of personnel had not a clue about the law in relation to personnel and HR matters.
The biggest issue - No winners!
This leaves a mist of sleaziness about the process, where the complainant comes out if this being criticised for being 'difficult' - even though she has a case; the other candidate is tarnished with going forward wearing a cloak of being the second-best candidate but got the job because he has a meat and two veg, and the inspirational leadership of the RAF look like a bunch of prejudiced cocks (however they have clearly completed their diversity training and are truly 'transformational' in their management style).
This is not about quota setting. It is about a system which cannot evidence that it is not corrupt.
My 2d.
In the same way that the other threads on Airworthiness state, there needs to be a transparent and auditable record / paper trail to demonstrate fairness in the process.
With the same gay abandon, the Star in charge of personnel had not a clue about the law in relation to personnel and HR matters.
The biggest issue - No winners!
This leaves a mist of sleaziness about the process, where the complainant comes out if this being criticised for being 'difficult' - even though she has a case; the other candidate is tarnished with going forward wearing a cloak of being the second-best candidate but got the job because he has a meat and two veg, and the inspirational leadership of the RAF look like a bunch of prejudiced cocks (however they have clearly completed their diversity training and are truly 'transformational' in their management style).
This is not about quota setting. It is about a system which cannot evidence that it is not corrupt.
My 2d.
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Quote:
"Asks a real question about whether someone in the RAF should have a title such as Group Captain be it male or female if they have never flown."
And then there's the Pilot & Flying Officers in ground branches......
"Asks a real question about whether someone in the RAF should have a title such as Group Captain be it male or female if they have never flown."
And then there's the Pilot & Flying Officers in ground branches......
Last edited by Photoplanet; 26th Jun 2013 at 09:49.
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Remember that leadership training thing with the 3 overlapping circles; task need, team, need and individual need? Now that the Services have become primarily an employment opportunity, the “individual” ring is now the size of a planet and the “task” one the size of a circus tent.
“task” one the size of a circus tent
lots of clowns, whipped animals jumping through hoops, and the safety net of job security and pensions is looking smaller every day.
Training Risky: The PMRAFNS was not part of the WAAF/WRAF and is still today a separate branch of the RAF as it was from its inception. I remember when us poor males were commissioned into the PMRAFNS, some of the older nursing officers did not know how to take us as until 1981 male nurses belonged to the Med Tech branch but within ten years we did have our first male one star as Matron in Chief/Director Nursing Services, in the form of Air Cdr Bob Williams.
Last edited by air pig; 26th Jun 2013 at 10:57.
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Unbelievable! Comments from short sighted bigots who seem to have no interest in the development and future success of the RAF.
Gp Capt Williams reached her rank in spite of the prevailing view that nurses above the rank of Sgt were lightweight part-timers.
She probably deserves the promotion because she is probably the best candidate.
Rgds SOSL
Gp Capt Williams reached her rank in spite of the prevailing view that nurses above the rank of Sgt were lightweight part-timers.
She probably deserves the promotion because she is probably the best candidate.
Rgds SOSL
Last edited by SOSL; 26th Jun 2013 at 17:03.