Last flying Vulcan to stay in the skies
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Just did a talk tonight at an historical society. I think the inescapable truth of deterrence is not 'if is could have worked' but if the other guy 'thought it could have worked.'
I wonder if Black Buck could have been avoided if a different approach had been taken. Rather than demonstrating that Buenos Aries was within range, stating that it was. Let them work out that two Vulcans at ASI was a militarily ineffective force but that two nuclear bombers . . .
Would it have worked?
I wonder if Black Buck could have been avoided if a different approach had been taken. Rather than demonstrating that Buenos Aries was within range, stating that it was. Let them work out that two Vulcans at ASI was a militarily ineffective force but that two nuclear bombers . . .
Would it have worked?
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PN,
I hope your talk went well. Got to keep reminding folks of our heritage.
As a youngster (55) I remember the Black Buck quite well from the time. I was busy modifying Chinooks with Ex Vulcan kit but know some of our EWAU team were engaged fitting Carousel and other stuff for the mission. 30 years after I have just finished reading the book.
I always thought that they should have dropped something, even if it was just a leaflet, on Brunos Aeries to send that message. Not sure what the air defence picture would have been like but Withers and his crew were bold enough to make it through to Stanley through quite a storm. Then others went back to do it again once the hornets nest had had a poke.
The fact that you guys never had to drop a bomb on USSR was a success. You could have had you had too. As a result I made it to 55 without growing up speaking German, as could so easily have been the case had your predecessors not done what they did in 45. Thank you.
I hope your talk went well. Got to keep reminding folks of our heritage.
As a youngster (55) I remember the Black Buck quite well from the time. I was busy modifying Chinooks with Ex Vulcan kit but know some of our EWAU team were engaged fitting Carousel and other stuff for the mission. 30 years after I have just finished reading the book.
I always thought that they should have dropped something, even if it was just a leaflet, on Brunos Aeries to send that message. Not sure what the air defence picture would have been like but Withers and his crew were bold enough to make it through to Stanley through quite a storm. Then others went back to do it again once the hornets nest had had a poke.
The fact that you guys never had to drop a bomb on USSR was a success. You could have had you had too. As a result I made it to 55 without growing up speaking German, as could so easily have been the case had your predecessors not done what they did in 45. Thank you.
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If the Vulcan had been tasked with dropping something
on BA, would it have got through and of course back to
somewhere safe ?
Anyone know what the air defenses were like ?
on BA, would it have got through and of course back to
somewhere safe ?
Anyone know what the air defenses were like ?
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If the Vulcan had been tasked with dropping something
on BA, would it have got through and of course back to
somewhere safe ?
Anyone know what the air defenses were like ?
on BA, would it have got through and of course back to
somewhere safe ?
Anyone know what the air defenses were like ?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The whole point about deterrence is not would we think it would get through but would they think it could?
Of course a country set on invasion - Argentina and Iraq - clearly did not think things through.
I know Ted Heath was pilloried for visiting Sadam in 1991 but I always thought he should have taken some air power videos with him.
Of course a country set on invasion - Argentina and Iraq - clearly did not think things through.
I know Ted Heath was pilloried for visiting Sadam in 1991 but I always thought he should have taken some air power videos with him.
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the Lightning. Apart from anything else, it actually did the job it was designed for, intercepting intruding Soviet bombers/recon aircraft. With no disrespect to any ex V force crews, the Vulcan, Victor or Valiant never dropped a bomb over a Soviet country, unless you boys know better
...the Lightning. Apart from anything else, it actually did the job it was designed for, intercepting intruding Soviet bombers/recon aircraft.
Neither of those types have been preserved in flying condition (Teasin' Tina aside!) which is a shame, but I'm still really pleased to see 588 around the shows to represent the cold war period.
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Fly by on the way home?
So there we were, family and friends having a barbie and a few beers on a quiet Sunday afternoon when the surreal sound and sight of a Vulcan at low level with its gear down gave rise to a great deal of exitement!
I guess they were on the way home after displaying at Cosford but does anyone know why there was a low level gear down pass over north Derbyshire on Sunday afternoon?
I guess they were on the way home after displaying at Cosford but does anyone know why there was a low level gear down pass over north Derbyshire on Sunday afternoon?
To have Bombed a city such as Buenos Aires would have been a ridiculous escalation which would undoubtedly have attracted international outrage and condemnation.
Overflying the city at low level in the early hours, to attact a military aerodrome would have been risky, but less provocative:
About a 13 hr round trip, which would certainly have needed AAR support.
Overflying the city at low level in the early hours, to attact a military aerodrome would have been risky, but less provocative:
About a 13 hr round trip, which would certainly have needed AAR support.
Last edited by BEagle; 12th Jun 2013 at 06:55.
To have Bombed a city such as Buenos Aires would have been a ridiculous escalation which would undoubtedly have attracted international outrage and condemnation.
If we had a flying example of everyones favourite aircraft there would be more historic ones flying than operational! Put them in a museum, saving the money, which can be better spent on the museum, rather than turning AVTUR into water!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I never said bomb BA. I said convince them that we COULD. Then it up to a rational opponent to realise that we MIGHT.
The problem in both Argentina and Iraq is that the leadership was irrational and convinced that we would not try retake the FI or eject them from Iraq.
In both cases the wrong signals had obviously been given and the deterrent had therefore failed.
Only by maintaining the mystique of the nuclear fist can deterrence work. It was maintained throughout the Cold War, largely maintained by the US, but given additional credence with British and French deterrent forces.
The problem in both Argentina and Iraq is that the leadership was irrational and convinced that we would not try retake the FI or eject them from Iraq.
In both cases the wrong signals had obviously been given and the deterrent had therefore failed.
Only by maintaining the mystique of the nuclear fist can deterrence work. It was maintained throughout the Cold War, largely maintained by the US, but given additional credence with British and French deterrent forces.
Only by maintaining the mystique of the nuclear fist can deterrence work. It was maintained throughout the Cold War, largely maintained by the US, but given additional credence with British and French deterrent forces.
Last edited by BEagle; 12th Jun 2013 at 12:46.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BEagle, as for use, yes, but from the Mouse that Roared they might know we know they know we know wouldn't, but are they sure we know they know?
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It was maintained throughout the Cold War, largely maintained by the US, but given additional credence with British and French deterrent forces.
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 12th Jun 2013 at 15:47.
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LONGEVITY
Right behind you, BEags
Back to the original point, RR are baulking at continuing to certify the elderly Olympus engines. Think about it - if one blows up, who will carry the can? Also the undercarriage has a very finite life. The V-bombers weren't built to last for 50 years.
Back to the original point, RR are baulking at continuing to certify the elderly Olympus engines. Think about it - if one blows up, who will carry the can? Also the undercarriage has a very finite life. The V-bombers weren't built to last for 50 years.
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Flatiron, how is it that RR haven't stopped all of the other vintage ac that are powered by RR engines such as the Merlin, Griffen, Goblin, Derwent not to mention older aircraft such as the Fury (Hawker) and Hind?
What's so special about an Olympus when compared with say an Avon in a Hunter?
MB
What's so special about an Olympus when compared with say an Avon in a Hunter?
MB
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Bin it - it swallows to much. The project achieved what it set out to do, admirably, but I feel that it's now a gravy train for some. Other projects are now more deserving of public cash, and they'll help to invigorate the airshow scene. IMHO that is.