QWI Course
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This is not willy waving or piss-taking (which is unusual for me) but the RN fixed wing AWI was a QWI on steroids. The course was 'broader' than QWI because it wasn't so platform specific (but clearly it centred on the SHAR) and included much more of what went on in the rest on the RN, including some PWO stuff etc. Part of the course also included all the EWI stuff. So, as well as being able to do the things that a QWI would do: ACM training, AG training, cine debriefs 
etc, an AWI was also up-to-speed on all aspects of warfare within the RN, as opposed to concentrating more on his own, particular aircraft type. Because of all the extras that were included the AWI course took a year to complete.
This is definitely NOT a post to denigrate QWIs but just some extra info for Alfred, since he's RN and it might be useful if he's aware of the difference between the two service's warfare instructors.
etc, an AWI was also up-to-speed on all aspects of warfare within the RN, as opposed to concentrating more on his own, particular aircraft type. Because of all the extras that were included the AWI course took a year to complete.This is definitely NOT a post to denigrate QWIs but just some extra info for Alfred, since he's RN and it might be useful if he's aware of the difference between the two service's warfare instructors.
Pontius: The course was 'broader' than QWI because it wasn't so platform specific (but clearly it centred on the SHAR) and included much more of what went on in the rest on the RN, including some PWO stuff etc. Part of the course also included all the EWI stuff.
P, not detracting from your argument at all, but a lot of QWIs in the FJ world I knew did or had also done the WEC and the EWI. I had, before I did QWI. But the navy AWI chaps doing a lot of PWO stuff, as well, is impressive.
P, not detracting from your argument at all, but a lot of QWIs in the FJ world I knew did or had also done the WEC and the EWI. I had, before I did QWI. But the navy AWI chaps doing a lot of PWO stuff, as well, is impressive.
Last edited by BBadanov; 9th Jun 2013 at 10:05.
It has to be QFI !
[ Quote : “ This is not willy waving . . . . “ ]
Well Pontius, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a little bit of willy-waving on a quiet Sunday morning . . so why not all be honest and admit that the very best qualification of the lot ( and by best I mean the most useful post service ) is that of QFI. As long as it's an A2 or better of course.
There's only ever going to be a limited number of TP jobs going and few, if none, QWI jobs in the civvi world. But QFI ? Well most of the airlines like the QFI tag and there is always the lure of the goldmine for military QFI's out in the sandpit with the RSAF ( got to get your A2 though ) where the bottom line of the pay chit reads the same as the top. Lovely Jubbly !
And then when you're too old for any other professional airline training captain stuff you can always while away your sunny afternoons at the local flying club earning a few beers for your efforts . . . 'nuff said.
. . . . so having tossed in the hand grenade I'd best go get my coat !
Well Pontius, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a little bit of willy-waving on a quiet Sunday morning . . so why not all be honest and admit that the very best qualification of the lot ( and by best I mean the most useful post service ) is that of QFI. As long as it's an A2 or better of course.
There's only ever going to be a limited number of TP jobs going and few, if none, QWI jobs in the civvi world. But QFI ? Well most of the airlines like the QFI tag and there is always the lure of the goldmine for military QFI's out in the sandpit with the RSAF ( got to get your A2 though ) where the bottom line of the pay chit reads the same as the top. Lovely Jubbly !
And then when you're too old for any other professional airline training captain stuff you can always while away your sunny afternoons at the local flying club earning a few beers for your efforts . . . 'nuff said.
. . . . so having tossed in the hand grenade I'd best go get my coat !
Quite a long fuse on this hand grenade Idle!!
Maybe you should add a brief note, in six colours of course, to illustrate the function of a squadron QFI!!
That should get a response I'm sure!!
Now for the grass cutting!!
Maybe you should add a brief note, in six colours of course, to illustrate the function of a squadron QFI!!
That should get a response I'm sure!!
Now for the grass cutting!!
IMHO such qualifications should be evaluated from multiple viewpoints.
A negative view might be too much specialisation, limiting some aspects of career advancement. However, if you are good enough to progress onwards and upwards, then the qualification should do no harm. Alternatively without advancement, choose a specialisation which has interest (hobby) for continued service or intrinsic value outside.
More positive views, suggest that qualifications do no harm, they indicate intent and ability. Most qualifications irrespective of specialisation enhance communicating skills and particularly those of thinking – technical application, etc.
Balance the interest / commitment aspects with a longer term view, personal / family, both within and outside of service.
From an old IWI view: first tour qualification, then OCU staff, and weapons related ground tour. The future was a re-tread back to the East Coast and less favourable two seat option – even with squadron promotion, and then back to the OCU/CTTO.
Volunteering for tp (perhaps in despair) sought alternative options. Interviews, etc completed, but no decision right up to the point of the new OCU course: – AOC level battle, IWI/OCU staff need vs IWI/tp need for a new AD project.
Tp option won, which in hindsight was most fortunate, even though there was no tp/IWI job after the course (project late), but research flying and dual tp tour enabled a most gratifying civilian option for the second half of a long flying career.
Of course you have to be lucky; but you can generate many aspects of luck by having more options / qualifications.
A negative view might be too much specialisation, limiting some aspects of career advancement. However, if you are good enough to progress onwards and upwards, then the qualification should do no harm. Alternatively without advancement, choose a specialisation which has interest (hobby) for continued service or intrinsic value outside.
More positive views, suggest that qualifications do no harm, they indicate intent and ability. Most qualifications irrespective of specialisation enhance communicating skills and particularly those of thinking – technical application, etc.
Balance the interest / commitment aspects with a longer term view, personal / family, both within and outside of service.
From an old IWI view: first tour qualification, then OCU staff, and weapons related ground tour. The future was a re-tread back to the East Coast and less favourable two seat option – even with squadron promotion, and then back to the OCU/CTTO.
Volunteering for tp (perhaps in despair) sought alternative options. Interviews, etc completed, but no decision right up to the point of the new OCU course: – AOC level battle, IWI/OCU staff need vs IWI/tp need for a new AD project.
Tp option won, which in hindsight was most fortunate, even though there was no tp/IWI job after the course (project late), but research flying and dual tp tour enabled a most gratifying civilian option for the second half of a long flying career.
Of course you have to be lucky; but you can generate many aspects of luck by having more options / qualifications.
Safetypee
From an old IWI view: first tour qualification, then OCU staff, and weapons related ground tour...........etc,etc.............
And if so, what does the first "I" stand for?????????
Interceptor, perhaps??
So was the Lightning a fighter, or an interceptor!!
Hat, coat, I'm off!!
Yes.
I recall that we intercepted bombers (a primary role), and fought fighters in other roles; being the best in both as the situation dictated.
Somewhat better than being a bomber and playing at fighting (fighter afil); and why always take a hat and coat when you went flying – expecting to walk home?
I recall that we intercepted bombers (a primary role), and fought fighters in other roles; being the best in both as the situation dictated.
Somewhat better than being a bomber and playing at fighting (fighter afil); and why always take a hat and coat when you went flying – expecting to walk home?
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@ Badanov #20
I think the whole FAI/QAI/QWI scheme grew first as a property of the Central Fighter Establishment (CFE) which in the 1950s occupied West Raynham. Our Canberra squadron QAI (1962-65), the excellent late Flt Lt Nev Whittaker, was ex-Hunters and qualified (I think) while still on fighters. I suppose the OCUs collected this post-grad training role when CFE closed 1965 or so. At this stage CTTO had not been invented.
In my time TP was clearly a career cul-de-sac, with the qualification being more valued by foreign air forces and the aviation industry. One in a generation could hope to become Commandant of ETPS.
ASQ has been mentioned. As the successor to SpecN, in my time it held for navigators the kudos of QFI and TP rolled into one - and was a good career move. For a pilot like me it was career suicide !
I think the whole FAI/QAI/QWI scheme grew first as a property of the Central Fighter Establishment (CFE) which in the 1950s occupied West Raynham. Our Canberra squadron QAI (1962-65), the excellent late Flt Lt Nev Whittaker, was ex-Hunters and qualified (I think) while still on fighters. I suppose the OCUs collected this post-grad training role when CFE closed 1965 or so. At this stage CTTO had not been invented.
In my time TP was clearly a career cul-de-sac, with the qualification being more valued by foreign air forces and the aviation industry. One in a generation could hope to become Commandant of ETPS.
ASQ has been mentioned. As the successor to SpecN, in my time it held for navigators the kudos of QFI and TP rolled into one - and was a good career move. For a pilot like me it was career suicide !
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Navy = AWI circa Scimitar/Buccaneer days
RAF = P(ilot)AI circa Hunter Days
RAF Buccaneer Force early 70s were first to create a crew WI cse and entitled it Buccaneer Attack Instructor (BAI). Eventually this evolved into QWI, which rest of FJ force followed. Hence: QWI(B); QWI(P); QWI(T); QWI(J) etc etc!
Where we lead the rest will follow!
Bloggs!
RAF = P(ilot)AI circa Hunter Days
RAF Buccaneer Force early 70s were first to create a crew WI cse and entitled it Buccaneer Attack Instructor (BAI). Eventually this evolved into QWI, which rest of FJ force followed. Hence: QWI(B); QWI(P); QWI(T); QWI(J) etc etc!
Where we lead the rest will follow!
Bloggs!
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Like Courtney Mil, I was a QWI
However, there were differences between forces. On the F3, the carry-over of principles and ethos from the F4 (and some from the Lightning) made the course and outcome certainly not 'I' in any meaningful way. In that I mean that QWIs were assessors first and instructors a very poor second (In my view as a QFI / QWI) It appeared to be more about Image (The Red Coaster) and less about passing on the real gen in real time. A Shame, but there were some notable exceptions to the F3 QWI Training flight's efforts, but this again in my view, was down to the specific student's own personal skills and personality.
Other forces, like the Jag / GR / and Viff, had a fantastic ethos of learning and endorsement of ideas, which I so hope the Typhoon has adopted. I guess time will tell.
Having Said that, It's a new dawn, and certainly a QWI qual indicates that you have achieved a level of capability which may be useful, but only in service, or working outside directly with certain defence contractors.
Advo
However, there were differences between forces. On the F3, the carry-over of principles and ethos from the F4 (and some from the Lightning) made the course and outcome certainly not 'I' in any meaningful way. In that I mean that QWIs were assessors first and instructors a very poor second (In my view as a QFI / QWI) It appeared to be more about Image (The Red Coaster) and less about passing on the real gen in real time. A Shame, but there were some notable exceptions to the F3 QWI Training flight's efforts, but this again in my view, was down to the specific student's own personal skills and personality.
Other forces, like the Jag / GR / and Viff, had a fantastic ethos of learning and endorsement of ideas, which I so hope the Typhoon has adopted. I guess time will tell.
Having Said that, It's a new dawn, and certainly a QWI qual indicates that you have achieved a level of capability which may be useful, but only in service, or working outside directly with certain defence contractors.
Advo
QFI
Idle Reverse
I can't speak for most, or indeed many, airlines but certainly a Big Airline near London attaches no special value to QFIs. During a recent recruitment campaign for TRIs/TREs, ex-RAF QFIs were sidelined during the recruitment campaign with little interest shown in their previous instructional background.
Well most of the airlines like the QFI tag
In the days when aircraft were dangerous and flying difficult the QFI was god. When aircraft became easier to fly and less dangerous and weapons became more complicated requiring difficult and complicated manoeuvres, the QWI became god.
You decide where the next difficult bit will be to see where the next gods will arise. For my money it's somewhere in force integration, comms, EW, robotics and pilotless ops.
You decide where the next difficult bit will be to see where the next gods will arise. For my money it's somewhere in force integration, comms, EW, robotics and pilotless ops.
QFI Value
Ham Fisted
(Quote : “ . . a Big Airline near London attaches no special value to QFIs “ )
And that’s exactly why I said most airlines !
The Big Airline near London has always been as you describe. I well remember chatting with an ex-RAF mate over a beer in a sandy climate somewhere who, at that time, was a FO with said airline. He’d been into the job for 2 yrs and when the chance came along he applied for a role as a Training FO ( not many other airlines offer that role ? ).
When asked why he thought he had sufficient experience to apply for the role after just 2 yrs with the company he merely said that having previously been the boss of the C130 OCU for 3 yrs might mean he could perhaps have something to offer.
Big Airline told him to go back to the line and wait until he was more experienced.
So you are right, the Big Airline near London puts little weight on the QFI ticket for it’s trainers but as a general statement the military QFI ticket is (IMHO) perhaps the most practical qualification to bring with you when you leave the service(s). Hats off to the QWI boys on the Sqn but outside, in general, a QFI ticket is more valuable . . . . ?
A knowledgeable interviewing board of course will be able to see the inherent skills that come with a QWI applicant . . . but my experience of getting a job / training job outside has shown the QFI ticket to be more useful.
Ps. Having tossed in the QFI hand grenade earlier, I have to say, the anticipated in-coming has been surprisingly light !??! . . I initially only wanted a little banter !
(Quote : “ . . a Big Airline near London attaches no special value to QFIs “ )
And that’s exactly why I said most airlines !
The Big Airline near London has always been as you describe. I well remember chatting with an ex-RAF mate over a beer in a sandy climate somewhere who, at that time, was a FO with said airline. He’d been into the job for 2 yrs and when the chance came along he applied for a role as a Training FO ( not many other airlines offer that role ? ).
When asked why he thought he had sufficient experience to apply for the role after just 2 yrs with the company he merely said that having previously been the boss of the C130 OCU for 3 yrs might mean he could perhaps have something to offer.
Big Airline told him to go back to the line and wait until he was more experienced.
So you are right, the Big Airline near London puts little weight on the QFI ticket for it’s trainers but as a general statement the military QFI ticket is (IMHO) perhaps the most practical qualification to bring with you when you leave the service(s). Hats off to the QWI boys on the Sqn but outside, in general, a QFI ticket is more valuable . . . . ?
A knowledgeable interviewing board of course will be able to see the inherent skills that come with a QWI applicant . . . but my experience of getting a job / training job outside has shown the QFI ticket to be more useful.
Ps. Having tossed in the QFI hand grenade earlier, I have to say, the anticipated in-coming has been surprisingly light !??! . . I initially only wanted a little banter !
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Ah, the QWI (AD) course. The brief, the trip, the debrief; followed by the debrief of the brief, the trip and the debrief - IIRC, sometimes finishing late at night after starting at 0630.....
Whilst I agree that the QFI ticket or TP qual are far more attractive outside the Service, I don't think that was the OP's question. QWI is the one whilst one is "in", others may well be better in the "next life". Unless, of course you fancy a spell with defence industry working on weapons and systems.
Can someone tell me what use my C Exam, ISS and WEC are supposed to be to me now?
Can someone tell me what use my C Exam, ISS and WEC are supposed to be to me now?