Battle of the Atlantic - 70th anniversary
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As an ex Merchant Navy Engineer I do try, without success, to stop winding myself up about how the Grey Funnel line was so prominent, and conversely how little coverage is given to the M.N. in both the Battle of the Atlantic and the Murmansk convoys.
Given the loss of over 2,000 British merchant ships and 30,000 sailors during the battle of the Atlantic and the R.N.s 175 vessels that were lost, can the OP please say where the figure of 45,000 RN fatalities comes from please?
Given the loss of over 2,000 British merchant ships and 30,000 sailors during the battle of the Atlantic and the R.N.s 175 vessels that were lost, can the OP please say where the figure of 45,000 RN fatalities comes from please?
Thread Starter
As an ex Merchant Navy Engineer I do try, without success, to stop winding myself up about how the Grey Funnel line was so prominent, and conversely how little coverage is given to the M.N. in both the Battle of the Atlantic and the Murmansk convoys.
Given the loss of over 2,000 British merchant ships and 30,000 sailors during the battle of the Atlantic and the R.N.s 175 vessels that were lost, can the OP please say where the figure of 45,000 RN fatalities comes from please?
Given the loss of over 2,000 British merchant ships and 30,000 sailors during the battle of the Atlantic and the R.N.s 175 vessels that were lost, can the OP please say where the figure of 45,000 RN fatalities comes from please?
However, without the naval escorts the battle would have been rather one sided, with convoys being massacred by the U Boats, long range aircraft, surface raiders, etc. Very few merchant ships or seaman would have survived.
The fatalities figure is the generally accepted number (for the Atlantic/European theatre) found in history books. Warships would have had larger crews than merchant ships, because of the need to man weapons and so on, so a sinking would mean greater loss of life.
Somebody else may offer more of a breakdown into where and when losses occured.
This link may provide some insight: September 1939 - August 1945 - Royal Navy Losses - Axis Navy Losses due to Royal Navy, or perhaps this page on specific actions and losses in the Atlantic.
With respect to the displays and events, twenty tears ago, at the 50th anniversary events, there was a flypast led by Sea Harriers (this was at a time when the Sea Harrier force was commited to Adriatic commitments), and also ex RN Buccs in RAF service, and a considerable RAF presence - although I cannot recall if a Nimrod took part. I had it on video tape for years. There was a fleet review - we had a larger fleet back then of course.
No jets in this year's flypast.
Fleet Air Arm aircraft, representing both Royal Naval Air Stations at Culdrose and Yeovilton proudly formed up to be led by one of the last two operational Swordfish in Britain, Swordfish Mk.II LS326, of the Royal Navy Historic Flight.
One of the Sea Kings taking part from Royal Naval Air Station Culdrose was from 771 Search and Rescue, Naval Air Squadron, flown by Lieutenants Ian King and Jonny Lynas. Flying in tight formation with the Swordfish and the other Fleet Air Arm aircraft was pretty special for them.
“It was a great honour to take part in this formation that saluted the dedication and bravery of the men who served during the War. It was a beautiful gin-clear blue sky, attracting a huge crowd at the Albert dock and Pier- head areas. Our flypast took us across the City from the massive Cathedral to the imposing `Liver-building’ overlooking the Mersey,” said Ian King.
771 NAS along with 814 NAS flying the Merlin HM 1 from RNAS Culdrose joined a Junglie Sea King from 848 NAS and a Maritime attack Lynx NAS from RNAS Yeovilton; showing-off some of the current serving aircraft in the Royal Navy. To mark this anniversary across the country, events have already been held in London and Londonderry with parades, flypasts and a service of remembrance in St Pauls Cathedral.
But it was in Liverpool where the Headquarters of Western Approaches Command was based during the War that the largest events were going to take place. From the city, operations directed against German U boats were planned and fought. In all Liverpool received over 1,000 convoys that helped support the war effort; re-supplying the nation with food, fuel, munitions and troops.
The Atlantic campaign reached its climax in May 1943 when the German submarine fleet suffered severe losses. U Boat skirmishes continued right up until the war ended, but the Allies had sunk so many by May 43 that they effectively won the Battle of the Atlantic thanks to the aggressive patrolling by the Royal Navy at Sea and the FAA and RAF in the Air.
One of the Sea Kings taking part from Royal Naval Air Station Culdrose was from 771 Search and Rescue, Naval Air Squadron, flown by Lieutenants Ian King and Jonny Lynas. Flying in tight formation with the Swordfish and the other Fleet Air Arm aircraft was pretty special for them.
“It was a great honour to take part in this formation that saluted the dedication and bravery of the men who served during the War. It was a beautiful gin-clear blue sky, attracting a huge crowd at the Albert dock and Pier- head areas. Our flypast took us across the City from the massive Cathedral to the imposing `Liver-building’ overlooking the Mersey,” said Ian King.
771 NAS along with 814 NAS flying the Merlin HM 1 from RNAS Culdrose joined a Junglie Sea King from 848 NAS and a Maritime attack Lynx NAS from RNAS Yeovilton; showing-off some of the current serving aircraft in the Royal Navy. To mark this anniversary across the country, events have already been held in London and Londonderry with parades, flypasts and a service of remembrance in St Pauls Cathedral.
But it was in Liverpool where the Headquarters of Western Approaches Command was based during the War that the largest events were going to take place. From the city, operations directed against German U boats were planned and fought. In all Liverpool received over 1,000 convoys that helped support the war effort; re-supplying the nation with food, fuel, munitions and troops.
The Atlantic campaign reached its climax in May 1943 when the German submarine fleet suffered severe losses. U Boat skirmishes continued right up until the war ended, but the Allies had sunk so many by May 43 that they effectively won the Battle of the Atlantic thanks to the aggressive patrolling by the Royal Navy at Sea and the FAA and RAF in the Air.
The Battle of the Atlantic was very much a joint R.N/R.A.F affair, so I really do not think that is a valid argument, mymatecm.
And as a loyal Scottish member of the dark blue, I am therefore very glad to note that, on page 81 of today's Times, there is a report of an RAF Benevolent Fund charity event held last week at Edinburgh Castle last week to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic, at which 93 year old Flight Lieutenant John Cruickshank VC was guest of honour.
His Victoria Cross was announced on 1 September 1944 and was awarded for the outstanding role he played in the sinking of U-361 on 17 July 1944, during which his Catalina's navigator was killed, and the then Flying Officer Cruickshank and his second pilot, Flight Sergeant Jack Garnett, were wounded by the submarine's anti aircraft fire, with Cruickshank sustaining over seventy wounds, including 12 major ones, before between them they successfully flew the badly damaged aircraft for nearly six hours back to Sullom Voe, where Cruickshank insisted on remaining airborne for a further hour before he was satisfied that sea and visibility conditions had improved sufficiently for a safe landing before the aircraft was beached for ease of salvage.
I believe that I am correct in saying that John Cruickshank is the sole surviving Second World War II holder of the Victoria Cross, as well as being the last surviving RAF holder.
Jack
And as a loyal Scottish member of the dark blue, I am therefore very glad to note that, on page 81 of today's Times, there is a report of an RAF Benevolent Fund charity event held last week at Edinburgh Castle last week to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic, at which 93 year old Flight Lieutenant John Cruickshank VC was guest of honour.
His Victoria Cross was announced on 1 September 1944 and was awarded for the outstanding role he played in the sinking of U-361 on 17 July 1944, during which his Catalina's navigator was killed, and the then Flying Officer Cruickshank and his second pilot, Flight Sergeant Jack Garnett, were wounded by the submarine's anti aircraft fire, with Cruickshank sustaining over seventy wounds, including 12 major ones, before between them they successfully flew the badly damaged aircraft for nearly six hours back to Sullom Voe, where Cruickshank insisted on remaining airborne for a further hour before he was satisfied that sea and visibility conditions had improved sufficiently for a safe landing before the aircraft was beached for ease of salvage.
I believe that I am correct in saying that John Cruickshank is the sole surviving Second World War II holder of the Victoria Cross, as well as being the last surviving RAF holder.
Jack
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Five minutes on google:
Royal Naval casualties betwwen 1939-1945
63787
That figure included Royal Marines and Defensively equipped Merchant ships in ALL theatres.
Edited to add this figure includes Dominion and Indian navies.
To quote 45000 as the figure for fatalities in the Battle of the Atlantic does not seem feasible. 175 RN ships were lost, even allowing for their manning levels that is over 250 per ship.
Royal Naval casualties betwwen 1939-1945
63787
That figure included Royal Marines and Defensively equipped Merchant ships in ALL theatres.
Edited to add this figure includes Dominion and Indian navies.
To quote 45000 as the figure for fatalities in the Battle of the Atlantic does not seem feasible. 175 RN ships were lost, even allowing for their manning levels that is over 250 per ship.
Last edited by francophile69; 1st Jun 2013 at 13:43.
I imagine that the figure of 45,000 relates to all actions anywhere around the Atlantic, and would include Dunkirk, the Norwegian campaign, the loss of the Hood, Couragious, Glorious, Royal Oak, our own submarines, etc.
There do not seem to be figures available for R.N. actions specifically related to the Atlantic convoys.
There do not seem to be figures available for R.N. actions specifically related to the Atlantic convoys.
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Uboat.net lists casualties directly attributable to attacks by Uboats
British Merchant Navy 34,430
Merchant Marine 6,022
R.N. 12,059
Which would seem rather more feasible than 45,000
Just annoys me things like the Murmansk convoys when they were in the News recently, 3 chaps interviewed, all ex RN.
The recent commemorations in Liverpool, which incidently I thought were quite well covered by the BBC, TEN Naval vessels were there but not one single Merchant navy representative was there. I know commercial considerations, in that Merchant ships have to go to sea occasionally to pay their way, have to be taken into consideration, but it does get my goat!
British Merchant Navy 34,430
Merchant Marine 6,022
R.N. 12,059
Which would seem rather more feasible than 45,000
Just annoys me things like the Murmansk convoys when they were in the News recently, 3 chaps interviewed, all ex RN.
The recent commemorations in Liverpool, which incidently I thought were quite well covered by the BBC, TEN Naval vessels were there but not one single Merchant navy representative was there. I know commercial considerations, in that Merchant ships have to go to sea occasionally to pay their way, have to be taken into consideration, but it does get my goat!
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Coastal Command & PRU's
Coastal Command was known as the Cinderella Service, In 2000 donations were sought so a memorial could be installed in London in memory. In the Atlantic Museum in Liverpool there is very large pic of Bismarck and tiny notice saying it was spotted by a PR Pilot. Wrote phoned and sent info but not even a reply from curators. So if you see that, the anonymous Pilot who later lost his life was 'Babe Suckling' a Photo Recce Pilot from 1PRU based at RAF Benson the WW2 hdqrts of PR .He flew off from Wick and found the dread battleships Bismarck & Prince Eugen in May 1941 which was idied by interpreters but was ordered to gt down to London with film.. Altho it was evening he did so but was running out of fuel when he reached Nottingham. He landed in dark ,got to a pal who owned a garage and had a car and they drove in the blackout down to London arriving there in early hours. Unfortunately,during this delay the Hood was sunk but in a week the Bismarck was destroyed the last straw being the great courage and aim of those fantastic Swordfish.' Bess em all'. Often wonder if Hitler hadnt been obsessed by his Russian 'adventures' and concentrated on the attacks on these convoys instead, what would the outcome have been.Too horrible to contemplate How much oil did our island have in store?? Knew of a big pipeline that obviously reached the camp lying under Cow Common, Ewelme.
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The Merchant Navy
Some of us have Not forgotten the FANTASTIC Merchant Navy . How on earth would this island have survived without them and their fantastic contribution to keep us supplied. No rubber , imagine WW2 without it??? Wooden wheels. Mind boggles. Ceylon the only supplier after fall of Malaya.//Am descendant of Merchant Marine and it is to them that Britain owes its Empire and the constant supply of commodities, Tea, Cocoa, lamb from NZ . wheat from Canada et al.sent to Blighty from the colonies.
IN fact it was the merchant marines of Elizabethan times that really started our foreign adventures and even used their own ships. Raleigh, the piratical Drake and Admiral Sir Wm Winter who fought against the Armada in 1588 hardly mentioned joined by his sons, nephew et al.. Some of their exploits were ghastly but it was how a little island became a world power when Britannia did rule the waves. Have the greatest admiration for you all, the terrible Arctic convoys , how anyone survived in those truly dreadful conditions beats me. The head of our section at Council served. We sailed in P.O ships once , never imagining that one day we would hardly have one.
IN fact it was the merchant marines of Elizabethan times that really started our foreign adventures and even used their own ships. Raleigh, the piratical Drake and Admiral Sir Wm Winter who fought against the Armada in 1588 hardly mentioned joined by his sons, nephew et al.. Some of their exploits were ghastly but it was how a little island became a world power when Britannia did rule the waves. Have the greatest admiration for you all, the terrible Arctic convoys , how anyone survived in those truly dreadful conditions beats me. The head of our section at Council served. We sailed in P.O ships once , never imagining that one day we would hardly have one.
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by oxenos
I imagine that the figure of 45,000 relates to all actions anywhere around the Atlantic, and would include Dunkirk, the Norwegian campaign, the loss of the Hood, Couragious, Glorious, Royal Oak, our own submarines, etc. There do not seem to be figures available for R.N. actions specifically related to the Atlantic convoys.
Originally Posted by francophile89
The recent commemorations in Liverpool, which incidently I thought were quite well covered by the BBC, TEN Naval vessels were there but not one single Merchant navy representative was there. I know commercial considerations, in that Merchant ships have to go to sea occasionally to pay their way, have to be taken into consideration, but it does get my goat!
Originally Posted by pru1
Coastal Command was known as the Cinderella Service, In 2000 donations were sought so a memorial could be installed in London in memory. In the Atlantic Museum in Liverpool there is very large pic of Bismarck and tiny notice saying it was spotted by a PR Pilot. Wrote phoned and sent info but not even a reply from curators. So if you see that, the anonymous Pilot who later lost his life was 'Babe Suckling' a Photo Recce Pilot from 1PRU based at RAF Benson the WW2 hdqrts of PR .He flew off from Wick and found the dread battleships Bismarck & Prince Eugen in May 1941 which was idied by interpreters but was ordered to gt down to London with film.. Altho it was evening he did so but was running out of fuel when he reached Nottingham. He landed in dark ,got to a pal who owned a garage and had a car and they drove in the blackout down to London arriving there in early hours.
I would like to note the service of Bert Tattersall, a merchant seaman who was on PQ17 (among many others), and very kindly told me about it for my History 'O' level project on the Battle of the Atlantic.
He hadn't spoken to anybody about it before, and after his descriptions I knew why. He became a butcher after the war; he told me simply that dead, cold flesh didn't bother him at all after the Arctic convoys.
He hadn't spoken to anybody about it before, and after his descriptions I knew why. He became a butcher after the war; he told me simply that dead, cold flesh didn't bother him at all after the Arctic convoys.
In an allied note regarding Battle of the Atlantic:
I read Hal Lawrence's book during my first deployment on an ASW destroyer. (A Spruance Class). He tells his side of being in the Battle of the Atlantic, and hunting U-boats, in the Royal Canadian Navy. As grim a business as it was, his account of capturing a German U-boat crew is peppered with comedy.
Been about 30 years since I read it. The copy I read was a permanent part of the ship's library.
I read Hal Lawrence's book during my first deployment on an ASW destroyer. (A Spruance Class). He tells his side of being in the Battle of the Atlantic, and hunting U-boats, in the Royal Canadian Navy. As grim a business as it was, his account of capturing a German U-boat crew is peppered with comedy.
Been about 30 years since I read it. The copy I read was a permanent part of the ship's library.
Thread Starter
Not sure if you would call the Arctic Convoys a subset of the Battle of the Atlantic, but anyway:
The story behind the journey Churchill called the “worst in the world"
As Britain marks 75 years after they first set sail, what were the Arctic Convoys?
Two years into the Second World War, the Soviet Union was under enormous pressure and in need of supplies. When Germany invaded on 22 June 1941, the Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin, asked for help from Britain and her allies.
Providing much-needed supplies would not be easy, with many sea routes defended by Nazi Germany. The most direct route was through the Arctic Circle by sea, around northern Norway to the Soviet ports of Murmansk and Archangelsk.
The treacherous route passed through a narrow channel between the Arctic ice pack and the Norwegian coast dotted with German naval ports. This course was extremely dangerous, especially in winter when the ice pack swells in size and creeps further south. The first convoy set sail from Liverpool on 12 August 1941, headed for Iceland where it departed on 21 August, and finally arrived in Arkhangelsk 10 days later. Codenamed Operation ‘Dervish’, the convoy delivered 48 RAF Hurricane fighters for the defence of Polyarnoe and Murmansk. Shortly after, the first Anglo-Soviet Protocol was signed, detailing the materials to be shipped to the USSR.
For the next four years, 78 convoys made the journey to Russia. Conditions were among the worst faced by any Allied sailors. As well as facing the Nazi German Navy, they battled extreme temperatures, gales and pack ice. Eighty-five merchant vessels and 16 Royal Navy warships (two cruisers, six destroyers, eight other escort ships) were lost.
The story behind the journey Churchill called the “worst in the world"
As Britain marks 75 years after they first set sail, what were the Arctic Convoys?
Two years into the Second World War, the Soviet Union was under enormous pressure and in need of supplies. When Germany invaded on 22 June 1941, the Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin, asked for help from Britain and her allies.
Providing much-needed supplies would not be easy, with many sea routes defended by Nazi Germany. The most direct route was through the Arctic Circle by sea, around northern Norway to the Soviet ports of Murmansk and Archangelsk.
The treacherous route passed through a narrow channel between the Arctic ice pack and the Norwegian coast dotted with German naval ports. This course was extremely dangerous, especially in winter when the ice pack swells in size and creeps further south. The first convoy set sail from Liverpool on 12 August 1941, headed for Iceland where it departed on 21 August, and finally arrived in Arkhangelsk 10 days later. Codenamed Operation ‘Dervish’, the convoy delivered 48 RAF Hurricane fighters for the defence of Polyarnoe and Murmansk. Shortly after, the first Anglo-Soviet Protocol was signed, detailing the materials to be shipped to the USSR.
For the next four years, 78 convoys made the journey to Russia. Conditions were among the worst faced by any Allied sailors. As well as facing the Nazi German Navy, they battled extreme temperatures, gales and pack ice. Eighty-five merchant vessels and 16 Royal Navy warships (two cruisers, six destroyers, eight other escort ships) were lost.
